The title is pointless. Some Democrats will go pro-corporate, and always have. Other Democrats will not…
As always, details matter, do your research, and keep pressure on people to act properly. Or else you’ll definitely get fucked. And you might get fucked anyway. (This is generally true for all government through all human history.)
The ones that dont are sheepdogs to give the illusion that if you stick around long enough we can reform a party thats operating as designed and has safeguards in place to prevent change. If clarity is needed, for the last several years thats been Bernie with a slow transition to AOC
Yes. But what ya gonna do? Reelect Trump?
The Party for Socialism and Liberation, which the subject of OP is a member of, is a revolutionary party. Here is their party platform.
Leftists didn’t elect trump, liberals did by never holding their people accountable
Voting is not for change, it’s to kick a bad actor out.
If you want change, surprise surprise, you have to get involved in politics.
So if there is not a chance that the person you vote for is actually elected, then it’s a risky bet (I guess this is for the USA midterms, and I don’t know enough about how they function).
The oligarchy is the bad actor, and that’s what we are trying to get out, but we have to fight both the oligarchy and liberals defending them
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This is where Democrats get confused, their party isn’t remotely left, they are somewhere on the political scale between first term trump and second term trump.
Liberalism or any defense of capitalism is not welcome here. Get your own house in order before entering other spaces and telling them how they are doing it wrong
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I can do whatever the fuck i want in my space. You were defending a fascist organization, and I assume you can read, is a violation of community rules
The major problem here is that you believe in reformism as a valid means of gaining lasting change, while leftists have understood for over a century now that revolutionary means are necessary. You use “the party” in place of the democrats, presumably, but the video above isn’t from the Democrats, or even the DSA: it’s from the Party for Socialism and Liberation, a Marxist-Leninist party in the US. Like the vast majority of Marxists, the PSL seeks revolutionary means to establish socialism, because they understand that the capitalist state apparatus cannot allow socialism to be peacefully implemented via reform.
the abuses they’re whining about in the video.
what are you even doing in this thread? you see the rules off to the right of the page? You are Not following them. Get your dumb trolling arse out of here. No one wants to hear your republican/dem centrist bullshit here.
So with more DSA candidates winning primaries than ever before, we’re still campaigning to not vote Democrat in the general so Republicans can keep gaining seats?
Democrats and Republicans are on the same team, nobody with a working brain cares about your bullshit
The DSA will not be able to establish socialism even if they get elected. In practice, the DSA will function much the same as other global north social democratic parties: they may expand welfare, but ultimately will be unable to stop imperialism, as you cannot transition to socialism via the capitalist state apparatus. This is why revolution is necessary, and actually is a major debate within the DSA itself right now even while they are gaining electoral steam, as the Marxists in the DSA at least know that even if they win electorally, revolution is still necessary to actually establish socialism.
Thank you Comrade. Are you going to be at the front lines overthrowing the fascists when the Republicans stay in power?
Republicans are not the only fascists, their liberal counterparts helped get us to where wew are right now
Both are liberals.
Sure, as well as if the Democrats take power. Either way we will be dealing with an anti-immigrant, imperialist, racist system that needs to be taken down and replaced with socialism. The idea that the Democrats winning would meaninfully change the conditions giving rise to society’s biggest problems confuses the role of the superstructure (read: laws, education, culture, government) as it relates to the base of society (the economic foundation).
Vote all you want, that really doesn’t matter much to me, what actually matters is if you get organized and begin to study the root causes of the problems we face today. Our instinct to simply vote on this or that candidate within the confines of capitalism is deliberate, its a pressure valve to prevent people from actually considering if voting is enough to gain the necessary changes we need to end settler-colonialism, imperialism, mass homelessness, unemployment, for-profit healthcare and housing, destructive environmental practices, and mass exploitation of labor.
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First of all, I don’t know who “Katrina Garcia” is. I think you may be referring to Karina Garcia of PSL, but PSL is not an electoralist organization despite running candidates. There is no confusion in PSL about the purpose of doing so, it’s to promote the party platform, show the inherent impossibility of reformism, and gain new members.
Secondly, you do not understand accelerationism. Accelerationism isn’t trying to make things worse so that people take up arms. Accelerationism is the strategy of speeding up capital accumulation so that the crisis of capitalism comes quicker, which means putting the most competent imperialists in power. The accelerationist candidate would be the Democratic party, which is far more competent at actually extracting super profits from the global south.
Thirdly, the idea that adventurism is praxis is fundamentally incorrect. You have an odd view of praxis, where you don’t believe education, agitation, and organization to be the primary tasks, but instead random assassinations or charity work. Revolution is not something accomplished via terrorism, revolution requires the masses of the people to be aware of their own conditions, as well as the conditions of their own liberation. That’s the role of a vanguard party.
Fourth, the idea of “regimes” and LARPing. “Regime” does not mean anything beyond “government, but scary word.” The establishment of a socialist state is immediately emancipatory for the working classes, and is in no way comparable to worker conditions under capitalism. Revolution is not a LARP, nor is pushing for revolution LARP. Revolution requires an organized working class, which is the primary task of socialists, not electing more competent imperialists.
Fifth, what you consider “meaningful action.” The idea that only charity work and terrorism are meaningful is absurd. The actual core tasks are to organize the working classes, and struggle alongside them in the realm of housing struggles, labor struggles, social struggles, political struggles, and connecting them all together. Charity work is good, I participate in it as well, but that’s not the primary task.
Sixth, allegations of LLM use, as well as the idea that I claim not to reside in the US. I do not use LLMs for my comments, this is completely baseless. Further, I have always claimed to be a Statesian, and have never once claimed that I am not. Why lie about who I am and how I comment? If you have a strong argument, then rely on the argument itself.
Finally, the idea that Marxist-Leninist theory stopped being written a year ago. This is horrendously wrong, people have carried over Marxist analysis to the modern era, and I frequently use more modern Marxist-Leninist analysis in discussing topics today. For example, Cheng Enfu’s theory of Neoimperialism is very helpful for understanding how imperialism has changed since Lenin first analyzed it in his conditions. Marx, Engels, and Lenin were not prophets. We do not read them looking for ready-made solutions, but instead to see how they applied Marxism to their conditions and used it to find solutions to their contemporary problems. Thus, Marxism-Leninism is living, and not ossified.
This theory is actively being put into practice. Any org that simply discusses theory internally and isn’t applying it is, at most, pre-party. What is the point about pretending people advocating for revolution somehow are utterly detached from political struggle?
Are you organized? If no, then that should be your number one task. Not whoever you vote for, which does less for political struggle than organizing does.
First of all, I don’t know who “Katrina Garcia” is. I think you may be referring to Karina Garcia of PSL
Autocorrect got me, fixed it now, thank you.
PSL is not an electoralist organization despite running candidates.
PSL doesn’t do shit all other than running spoiler candidates in elections. They are silent outside of election cycles. They’re happy to just continue taking in campaign funds to line their own pockets like hypocrites.
Secondly, you do not understand accelerationism.
So I was right.
That’s the role of a vanguard party.
Vanguardism is a futile effort and you know it. It’s never worked and it never will work.
Sixth, allegations of LLM use, as well as the idea that I claim not to reside in the US. I do not use LLMs for my comments, this is completely baseless.
Baseless sure, but I’d call it gut instinct. Especially when LLMs love numbered lists.
Further, I have always claimed to be a Statesian, and have never once claimed that I am not.
My apologies, I confused you for Davel, because you’re basically the same collective fan club.
Finally, the idea that Marxist-Leninist theory stopped being written a year ago.
I never claimed it didn’t, but theory is meaningless when it’s just an endless cycle of iteration with nothing being put into practice. When you’re working off of a corpus of theory developed from a century-old sociopolitical context that no longer exists, you have to peel back further to address the flawed assumptions that early theorists made, but instead it’s been crystallized. It’s the same way one could claim that Christian scripture is still developed because different denominations will rewrite sections of their holy text and reinterpret doctrine all the time, and yet it’s somehow still infallible. Same flawed assumptions.
Are you organized? If no, then that should be your number one task. Not whoever you vote for, which does less for political struggle than organizing does.
I am organized, but thank you for your constructive feedback. Now kindly find some other thread to go shout into the void.
PSL does far more than running candidates. From education programs, to fighting local struggles for unionizing, political struggle, and training organizers, the bread and butter of PSL’s work is at the local level and connecting it to the entire struggle. PSL is not “silent,” Liberation News is active, as are local PSL branches in engaging with what is actually important.
Secondly, the fact that I corrected you on accelerationism does not mean I am an accelerationist. I am not.
As for vanguardism being futile and never working, this is patently false. From Russia to China to Vietnam to Cuba to Korea and beyond, vanguards have been successful in waging revolutionary struggle. Marxist-Leninists carry forward the vanguard strategy because it is proven, and effective.
Defending your accusation of LLM use just because I sometimes list out my points is absurd, and incredibly bad-faith. You couldn’t even be bothered to verify who you were speaking to, and feel plenty comfortable accusing me without verification. This is just sloppy behavior.
As for the idea that Marxist-Leninist ideas have not been put into practice, again, this is wrong. Socialist states have only ever been established via Marxism-Leninism, we have over a century of Marxism-Leninism being put into practice. Even within the US, organizations like the Black Panther Party saw success using Marxism-Leninism. This is another baseless point you dropped without context.
Glad you’re organized, keep it up. Maybe stop fedposting though, advocating adventurism will get you got.
DSA are democrats to keep you locked into electoralism and the status quo.
Wow definitely no mod abuse to push an agenda here! /s
There’s no agenda, this isn’t a liberal space
What is a liberal?
A follower of liberal ideology, which generally supports the right to private property.
You’re surprised that the agenda in a space called “Late Stage Capitalism” is anti-capitalist? Have you considered the possibility that you might be really fucking stupid?
I’m also anti capitalist ofc, just also anti harm preservation
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You can vote blue no matter who without denying reality
We also denounce Nazi adjacent. If you didnt notice the sidebar clearly says this is not a place for liberalism or support of it. Liberals and conservatives are Nazis and fascists
They’re FN nazis, point blank.
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Yes sir, I’m here inside the Lemmy online discussion forums and few months before the midterms and even here the division seems to be holding sir. Even the most sensible statements get nearly as many downvotes as upvotes. Most still seem to believe elections will be held and that who they choose will make a difference too.
Theres no division, we are not democrats or liberals, theres nothing to divide. The division is liberals that think they are leftists and/or have no idea what the left is
The downvotes got their cognitive dissonance triggered. Bill Clinton specifically led us to where we are right now
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Fuck off, spoilers dont exist. We are not democrats we will not vote for democrats. And since you completely incapable of reading, support for liberalism is not welcome or tolerated
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You are the enabler of our current fascist state. WWII Germans didn’t see themselves as the bad guy either until the dust settled
Every election cycle you people come out and rally around making sure people are ‘seeing the Democrats for who they are’ and every election cycle you passively wait for them to subsume themselves to their own corruption and do nothing. You’re an accelerationist shitbag who effectively aupport the active decline of America because your self abusive disdain for your failed birthright makes you think you’re entitled to the destruction of an entire people while millions are already starving and dying, and concentration camps pop up all over the country. Wake the fuck up.
The issue isnt that we come out during elections, it’s that liberals only start paying attention during election season. How’s that incrementalism working out for you? Your party has accepted a rightward shift for 30 years without question
Again you really need to step away and calm the fuck down. You don’t know me and you don’t know how I’m doing. But I can tell your instant defensiveness and willingness to just delete posts tells me that you don’t even have the facilities or werewithal to defend your own position and are just as lost as the average leftist trying to figure what they fuck is even the point when all you have is purity teating and accusing peolle of liberalism.
But I do know you, you are defending the empire to keep your own privilege.
Marxists agitate against democrats and republicans year-round, every year. You may tune in more around election season, but that does not mean the Marxists are doing nothing. Rather, Marxists understand that organizing is far more effective than voting under capitalism, and organizing has no such time constraints.
Accelerationism isn’t making conditions worse. Accelerationism is the belief that we should support the most competent capitalists to accelerate the concentration of capital, and thus the demise of capital. This means supporting the democrats, not republicans. I don’t think anyone here is an accelerationist, but if anyone had credible claim to be one, it would be the people advocating to support the DNC.
Instead, Marxists support organizing for revolution. This happens outside of the electoral system, at the grassroots level, and does not require timelines. Creating an organization that can educate the working classes on revolutionary struggle, that can struggle alongside workers at every major battlefront, and guide the working classes in a unified direction is the most pressing task for political activists.
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I don’t support the Republicans or Democrats, I support the working classes organizing their own political party and movement for revolution. I never once said I support the Republican party, it isn’t a binary choice no matter how much you seem to want it to be. I choose neither.
The fact is, the Democrats are more effective imperialists, and therefore they aid more effectively in accelerating the concentration of capital, and therefore crisis. This is the accelerationist position, which I disagree with. We cannot wait for this process, we must actively organize to overthrow the system rather than try to expedite its collapse.
I don’t see how standard revolutionary Marxism is “failure of pure theory.” The practical option is to get organized, something the CIA desparately does not want to happen. Fedjacketing me for being a consistent Marxist is unacceptable behavior for anyone that legitimately wants a better world.
The fact that you only notice us during election cycles says you only pay attention during election cycles. That’s on you.
That would be clever if you were capable of actually producing any results outside of constantly losing elections.
You’ve lost 2 elections to a fucking carnival barker and you want to lecture other people on how they vote?
Marxists are not “wreckers” for consistently stating that reform is a dead end and revolution is necessary. This has been true since Marx and Engels themselves.
Don’t see you leading the charge either. You’re stuck on a keyboard and waiting for other people to die for you so you can keep your treats. Fuck off.
I do org work IRL, but I’m not foolish enough to dox myself. I am consistent with Marxist-Leninist beliefs and practice, I put my skin on the line. This sounds like projection on your part, if I’m being honest. Get organized! It can be incredibly fulfilling work.
I do not think anyone claiming revolution is the only path and then start talking about organizing like flyers are gonna spark the fall of capitalism is a serious person.
Organizing doesn’t spark revolution. Crisis happens regularly in capitalism (George Floyd, October 7th, ICE attacks, data center advancement, the AI bubble), and this mobilizes the masses into action. What the masses actually do while mobilized, however, is limited by their class consciousness and the presence or lack thereof of organized leadership with a coherent plan.
The task right now is to, as I have said, educate (both yourself and the rest of the working classes), agitate (in favor of socialism and revolution), and organize (a disciplined cadre of professional revolutionaries that struggles alongside the rest of the masses). I’m dead serious about this, this is basic Leninist revolutionary theory, and it works.
Here’s a great rant in this vein by Blakeley: 📺 Why the Democratic Party CANNOT and WILL NOT be Reformed
Democrats would rather lose to a Republican, to a conservative, to a fascist, to Trump, than address the material conditions of the American people.
Great feeling knowing that the left here is represented by delusional censorious shiffucks who are going to lead us all directly to the camps. Ban me already you fucking cowards.
Taking out the trash isnt censorship. You are not the left, you are a class traitor defending your own oppression
You don’t even know who I am. You’re a judgemental asshat powertripping over the smallest source of control in your life.
Who is going to lead you in the camps are those democrats going to fox news to trash progressists and Hassan Piker
Yes I agree which is why we primaried the fuck out of them and got a ton of candidates that aren’t as easily distracted or deranged. That still doesn’t change the fact that I would pick one of them over a Republican any day of the week and worry about it next time they are primaried. And yes, if I thought a third party had any notable momentum over them whatsoever I would vote for them instead but you cannot let the R win no matter what at the end of the day.
And edit, just so we’re clear, the Republicans are actively building the camps as we speak and I hope it goes without saying that any alternative to that is preferrable.
Second edit: people downvoting me can you even prove any sort of superior rationale here? You have the burden of proof here to tell me what your plan to oppose this is even realistically capable of.
Yes I agree which is why we primaried the fuck out of them and got a ton of candidates that aren’t as easily distracted or deranged.
Most of them was not primaried
That still doesn’t change the fact that I would pick one of them over a Republican any day of the week and worry about it next time they are primaried
They do not support the abolishing of the fascist force . You basically want to vote for republicans dressed as democrats
Then fucking die I guess. Jesus christ you all give up the instant you don’t have the most optimal utopian power build for your fantasy electoral candidate.
Edit: i keep having to do this because I keep noticing extra defeatism when I look back at these posts but if you think all Democrats are Republicans anyway then you are truly lost in the sauce. You don’t even name names for who doesn’t oppose what you’re just making generalities that are convenient to the point your desperate to believe so you can cry about it.
Why are you acting like a snowflake? I never said anybody should give up
Because rather than focus on who WAS primatied and who WON the primaries, you revert to ‘thinga aren’t going to change anyway because they aren’t hoing to change anything boohoo’ you have yet to specifically name one example here that would warrant this level of sniveling dreadmongering.
I never said that. I am saying the opposite because a ton of so-called centrists still win we have to do a better job not only during election seasons. You are celebrating early and ignoring reality. While Kamala Harris went to the shadow to only reappear to promote her shitty book, there are non-mainstream politicians that are on the street fighting for a better country…
You are soft on the traitors within the democratic party going to fox news agreeing with republicans and trashing the DSA and act hard on random people on an niche social media like lemmy
No lies detected
I was told the reason the Democrats couldn’t do anything more for those two years was because of the ACA. After reaching across the aisle anyway to go from a medicare for all system to the shit we have now.
Seems like a failure of a party to multitask and delegate to me as well as prioritize.
They passed 161 other pieces of legislation before they got to the ACA. Their failure to act was a choice.
I’m certain all the subsidies to profitable industries got through no problem.
Don’t stop there. Don’t forget Biden introducing the most draconian immigration bill to ever hit the house floor.
As opposed to the current ICE practices? I’m bored of this both sides propaganda as the other user in this thread stated
Edit: beware of the both sides propaganda bots. They are meant to discourage voter turnout
Democrats built the torment nexus. Republicans are using it.
Democrats: “Well we can’t dismantle the baby smashing device. Think of the impacts it would have on the economy!”
And so the orphan crushing machine continues to crush orphans not because we need it, but afraid of what it’ll be like without to the immoral and unjust.
There are no 2 sides as democrats and republicans are the same side
Ahh yes. Because Republicans are bad, that means that Democrats aren’t bad, and other baby brain shit liberals fucking need to pretend is real to maintain coherence in their world view.
Okay cool…so what’s your plan?
Education, agitation, and organizing for revolution. The people make the revolution, so to prepare for it organizing disciplined organizations of professional revolutionaries that can help educate the rest of the working classes and train to help steer the revolution in a positive direction is necessary ahead of time.
whats YOUR plan?
Seems the “plan” is to try and convince people to not vote so that the worse evil wins.
The plan is to not permit the centrist dems to stab us in the back anymore. How can we fight repubs when our ‘allies’ sell us out all day every day?
Yeah, but the primaries are over, if you didn’t do your part, then shut the fuck up about splitting the party and giving a win to the outright fascists who want to murder you. Unless you want that shit, then shut the fuck up anyway.
Democrats are also outright fascists who want to murder me
Ahh yes. Because Democrats are bad, that means Republicans aren’t even worse, and other baby brain shit terminally online “leftists” need to pretend is real to maintain the coherence in their world view. Like “Everyone who thinks my strategy is harming the left is a liberal actually” and “Refusing to participate in elections will spontaneously elevate everyone’s class consciousness to the point of revolution”
Baby brain shit to be sure.
Nobody says that about elections, though. Marxists disagree with the idea of “lesser evil” voting, but the idea that Marxists think refusal to vote raises class consciousness is a strawman.
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Splitting the vote is fantasy that only exists in the mind of a liberal. There are no circumstances that we would vote for your right wing fascists. There could be only 1 person on the ballot, and if they are democrat or republican we would not vote.
Trump is a byproduct of liberals never holding their politicians accountable, 50 years of ‘lesser evil’ has cumulated into an evil so large and overwhelming they’ve lost control of it.
I was a bit too hasty in my comment, I apologize. I understand where you’re coming from. I think the Dems are definitely better than the Republicans in a significant way. The Republicans are cartoonishly evil to me.
However, in toeing the line and bowing down to corporate interests and not going after Epstein, Israel and attacking the left have turned them into enemies in many ways.
Trump is a byproduct of liberals never holding their politicians accountable
This is correct. Vote in the primaries people!
More than that, get organized and study the conditions we live in. If we are to solve the problems of today, we should first study.
