The recent recognitions of a Palestinian state and the October 10 ceasefire have been followed by a flurry of calls to “deradicalize” Palestinian society. The New York Times editorial board went so far as to compare this deradicalization project to the denazification of Germany after the Second World War. These calls have the situation backwards to the point of farce.
I mean, it’s really both. Hamas is batshit crazy, they’re just far less militarily powerful.
There are no good guys in the Israel Palestine fight.
also you must be deradicalized, and everyone else on lemmy
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Hamas has power because they are resisting an apartheid state. I’m sorry but I absolutely hate this take. You can criticize a state when it gains sovereignty and is enacting unjust laws against its citizens. But when the only resistance to an apartheid state is a right wing faction that right wing faction is still correct for resistance.
Do you think the solution to the unjust Jim Crow laws of the segregation in the US South would be for Canada to start carpet bombing Atlanta? A people can not make progress within their state structures while under the thumb of oppression and apartheid.
The time to criticize the Palestinian state is after there is a sovereign Palestinian state. Hamas on paper might have right wing ideas. But Hamas as a force fighting an apartheid state against the genocide of its people is absolutely fully justified. And that’s who makes up “Hamas”.
The Palestinian people don’t have the luxury of deciding which ideology is fighting to resist their extermination. And not until they have self determination as a people can they begin to actually progress in their civil rights.
Not to mention that few Palestinians currently alive ever voted for Hamas. The average Palestinian is 20 years old, 63% of their population is under 29. The last election was in 2006, meaning 63% of the current population would be 10 or younger when those elections happened.
Slight dip in Hamas support, but group still most popular
The group resisting genocide is popular? /shocked
Did you just “bOth SiDeS” a genocide?
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“82% of Israelis want to expel Palestinians from Gaza; 47% want to kill every man, woman, child in Gaza”
https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2025/05/30/poll-israelis-expel-palestinians-gaza-genocide/
I doubt you’d have the same number from Palestinians because they are not indoctrinated from birth to dehumanise, like the Israelis are. There’s a reason corporate media in the West never interview “normal” israelis
I think you seriously underestimate the Palestinians and what they think of their neighbours
Okay, I’ll bite. Let’s say that Palestinians also need to be deradicalized. Surely the first step should be to stop the ongoing genocide and apartheid?
Sure best thing today (for me) would seem to stop fighting, re-establish pre '67 borders and go from there.
I don’t know what you understand under ‘end apartheid’ (it’s been thrown around rather cheaply lately) but if you mean a one-state-solution where everybody stops thinking along religious lines: I don’t really think that’s realistic in the short term
I’m also not sure what I mean by “end apartheid”, because I also don’t know whether it’s realistic in the short term. That would still be the most realistic path to deradicalising Palestine.
A reasonable first step towards that long term goal would be to end the ongoing genocide. It’s hard to even speculate about possible futures when each day of needless bloodshed makes future peace more difficult.
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Of course there aren’t. Especially not the (checks notes) starving civilians, children, the elderly, the disabled and the people wanting to live a normal life. They’re ceratainly not “in the fight”. They’re not right beside it, either. They’re magical beings made up by Khamas to make the world hate Israel.
Both sides are the same. That’s why one should genocide the other. It is the natural order of the world, after all.
Come on, dude/dudette. It’s not about sides. It’s about people. But there’s one thing about sides I do know: there’s one side of history you’re on. And it’s exactly the wrong one.
If one stops trying to subjugate the other, the other should hopefully slowly start to be calm down about the subjugation.
Years and years of people stealing land, burning houses, shooting unarmed protesters and prosecuting people unfairly only leads to more hatred, more conflict, and more war.
If there was any chance of a free and fair election in Palestine that could elect something else it would be good, but only would end up different if it came without Israel’s interference and them actually staying out of Palestine. Governments like Israel and the U.S. or U.K. trying to put anyone on the ground there is more likely to cause conflicts. Where as if the UN countries all agreed to cut all trade with Israel if they didn’t stop trying to instigate shit… Israel would likely listen, or dissolve over time if they didn’t. The only people who should be on the ground there is investigate journalists and AID from around the world to help those people rebuild and leave whatever can be left behind them behind them
Honest question:
Why are the US and other countries, backing Israel so hard? I’ve heard they have an amazing spy system, and it seems to be only politicians that back Israel unconditionally. Is it blackmail, keeping our fuck ups as status quo, or maybe “Hamas is evil no matter what?”
No, it’s cultural affinity (polite way of saying racism) and economic interests (polite way of saying colonialism).
Same reason why the entire western world was fully supportive of South Africa during Apartheid
It’s also propaganda, AIPAC has been pushing the idea of Israel devotion for decades in the US. I’d imagine there’s similar lobbying groups (in less obvious forms) in other countries as well.
Falls under cultural affinity.
It also takes other forms, that are not always very explicitly racist. In Greece for example, a country with a traditionally anti-imperialist people (Papandreou and Arafat were really besties), Israel has become a strategic ally to contain against Turkish aggression. Even Tsipras was cordial with Bibi. Take away Erdogan’s sabre rattling and Greece would probably revert back to sanity.
I would say influencing others has less to do with racism and more to do with power mongering. People with power influencing others to get the outcome they want. Plenty of Democratic representatives who aren’t otherwise racist are impacted by them.
Where i live (argentina), Israel’s agenda is pushed in almost every news outlet, especially from the right. Some journalists even wear Israeli pins and have Israeli flags on their desks. And, for real, we couldn’t care less about the near east (dont get me wrong, but i think you will agree that we have our own set of domestic problems). For what I see and what I hear that happens in other parts of the west, I feel that “cultural affinity” isn’t the only card on their hand.
Well said. I probably would have taken 5 paragraphs to explain it so well. Imperialist interest align.
So, when you say racism, do you mean because of their religions, Palestinians being mostly Muslim and Israel being Jewish? Don’t they look the same?
Talk to the Irish and Polish about 19th century racism.
Limiting racism to skin color is a more modern interpretation.
I would say two types of racism
That area is so confusing to me. I learned about it in ancient times in college, but the cultural things like this are so wild. I wasn’t exposed to anything about it besides ancient history. Thanks for explaining a lot of. It seems that oil+racism=so many hate crimes
Honestly don’t know for certain, but Israel pays a lot of money into lobbying in the U.S.
On a side note I would say Israel is the U.S. guaranteed entry point to that region of the world, so when it comes to intimidating other countries having a foothold somewhere there is of value to the U.S. (vehicle efficiency has increased, and car ownership dropped from 138 million registered in 2021 to 97 million registered in 2023.). So 30% loss in cars., and population increased from ~285m to ~337m during that time. (Irrelevant, but for scale that’s 127% of Canadas population total)
So the U.S. has stockpiled military equipment in Israel for decadees that is well defended do to shared technologies. This allows for unilateral support if say Bush 1 or Bush 2 wants to manipulate the area for something pertaining to oil prices getting to low/high. Contrary to many, I believe the U.S. ensures oil barrels stay higher in price because the lifting cost in the U.S. is higher. A good example is our oil production has increased by more than double from 2001 till today.
If the cost of oil in Iran/Saudia Arabia go lower that profitability drops, and some of the largest contributors to the Republican party (oil companies in the west, would see huge drops in income).
Other countries of interest there. Argentina, Columbia, and Venezuela. Should also mention Brazil, but they have grown closer ties with China who they export most of their excess Oil production too. Harder to impact at the moment, so they likely want to keep them out of direct conflicts.
Remember Trump sat down in May 2024 asking oil executives directly for $1 billion dollars in campaign contributions to help him get elected with the promise to squash any programs he could pertaining to EV growth.
Aipac is funded by american zionists not israel
I strongly believe some countries feel the need to support Israel through their worst decisions simply because they (Israel) have nukes. It would most likely be preferable to have a friendly nuclear power rather than an unfriendly rogue one, even if they’re frequently uncooperative.
and apparently doing genocide.
Oil and natural gas. Also using it as a proxy serving imperialism interests against the other side of impwrial countries (China and Russia)
Hamas accept the two state solution. Israel doesn’t
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I also support the one state solution but many Palestinians still believe in a two state solution and Palestinian will have the right to pick which one they really want
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That would be nice, but its basically impossible at this point. Neither side would accept the other being a part of their governance. The only way to get to one state now is, well, to do what everyone is accusing Israel of doing right now.
Hamas doesn’t accept the two state solution. They are open to maybe discussing potentially reaching a consensus about the 1967 borders.
If you want to underscore Israeli unreasonableness, you’ve got to point to the PA/Fatah. The PA/Fatah has accepted the two state solution and has stopped violent resistance against Israel. They are in every way an interlocutor for peace. And in return they are being constantly undermined and ratfucked by Israel. Their territory is being annexed, its authority ridiculed, ita legitimacy destroyed.
So PA has respected the term of the Oslo accords and Israel didn’t and start building more settlements, arming and protecting the settlers yet PA still accept to work for Israel security while west banker get terrorized and attacked by them . Thank you for proving my point that PA are collaborators and Israel do not want peace regardless if Hamas is destroyed or not
Israel actually dismantled settlements after Oslo. Hamas opposed the Accords and carried out several deadly bomb attacks against Israeli civilians in the runup to the next election. This put Netanyahu in power who ran on an agenda of opposing Oslo as well. Their refusal to a two state solution, and futile hope to defeat Israel through violence and terrorism, squandered every chance for a peaceful solution.
Israel under Rabin seemed intent to stick to the accords, but a far-right ultrazionist terror attack in Hebron and the subsequent assassination of Rabin by a right-wing Israeli extremist undermined it significantly as well.
Of course the mosque attack had the same aim, and needs to be condemned just the same. But despite them, Arafat and the PA decided to continue the path towards peace. Hamas saw them even more as traitors and collaborators because of it (and, I’d like to point out, several posters in this thread still seem to believe this).
Despite it being a shocking event, the assassination of Rabin did not make Israel leave the path. His successor vowed to continue and even had a 30-point lead in the polls at one point.
Without the Hamas’ bombing campaign Netanyahu would have been left shouting from a corner instead of being handed the power to reverse Oslo.
then quickly built new one. Even if it was Palestinian that did not respect it. Building more settlements is illegal under international law
Hamas was not part of the Oslo accords . Netanyahu himself say that he was the one who sabotaged it not Hamas
Before we continue: do you believe Netanyahu was part of the Oslo Accords?
What a dumb question
The Oslo Accords are a pair of interim agreements between Israel and the PLO. Israel can’t escape from it’s obligation just because the prime minister changed. Hamas was never a member of the PLO
Do you believe Netanyahu represented Israel when the Oslo Accords were signed?
Do you think Hamas took over the obligation from the PLO to follow the Oslo Accords when they were elected in Gaza?
You’re exaggerating, but also sure, why do they need to go any further? Compromising beforehand is never a good idea, see: PA. Speaking of which, PA isn’t a tragic victim; they’re an active collaborator. The only thing they do is keep Palestinians under an oppressive dictatorship and fight what little Palestinian resistance exists in the West Bank. That’s why they have no legitimacy; their current program is one of submission, not “peace.”
They literally didn’t. Source?
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240118-meshaal-hamas-rejects-two-state-solution/
The 2017 charter of Hamas say that it accept it , it is the last updated version. Khalil al-Hayya has more practical power within Hamas than Mashaal and he said that Hamas would drop arms after having a Palestinian state is made so without arms how are they supposed to destroy Israel
https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2025/10/who-hamas-chief-negotiator-khalil-al-hayya
Hmm
Hamas sabotaged the Oslo Accords by blowing up civilians exactly because they opposed a two state solution. (Succesfully, because this then helped Netanyahu seize power)
Hamas was not part of the Oslo Accords so no Hamas did not sabotaged it . Oslo Accords is still respected by the PLO while Israel continue to steal Palestinians land, arm and protects the settler terrorists. I don’t know why you keep using the same excuse Israel do
Secular Palestinian Political Organisations existed, Bibi supported Hamas specifically to weaken the secular flanks, because it’s way easier to justify a genocide against Hamas
thats what i read too, and he mostly advocated funding to hamas too.
The secular Fatah ended up being the one collaborating with Israel
Fatah made a deal with Israel and it stuck to it. Fatah didn’t “collaborate”, it tried to achieve peace and a Palestinian state. It is the only player in the conflict that plays within the parameters set out by the UN.
Fatah is a truly tragic organization in this whole drama. Before you accuse Fatah of anything, you must first condemn Israel and the international community for betraying the shit out of them.
Israel didn’t respect the Oslo accords so PA shouldn’t keep respecting it either.
I condemn Israel first, the Arab traitors and western countries Israel supporters seconds and the occupation collaborators the PA last.
Easy to pontificate to the Palestinians what they should or shouldn’t do.
Support for Palestinian factions: support for Hamas declines by 4-points while support for Fatah remains unchanged. The decline in support for Hamas came from the West Bank. Support for Fatah is higher in the Gaza Strip than in the West Bank and support for Hamas is also higher in the Gaza Strip than in the West Bank. In both areas, support for Hamas is higher than the support for Fatah.
Support for Palestinian leaders: If presidential elections were held between three candidates, Marwan Barghouti of Fatah, Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah, and Khalid Mishal of Hamas, Barghouti would receive 50% of the vote, followed by Khalid Mishal and Abbas.
The release of Marwan Barghouti is supported by Hamas but not by the Palestinian Authority
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/war-gaza-palestinian-authority-oppose-marwan-barghouti-release-negotiations#%3A~%3Atext=The+source+added+that+senior%2Cof+PA+President+Mahmoud+Abbas.
Marwan Barghouti is a member of Fatah.
The JCPA that you cite is a conservative Israeli think tank…
Edit: You changed the citation.
Sure Abbas doesn’t want him out, but Fatah is not Abbas and Abbas is not Fatah. Fatah is a mass organization.
Barghouti is one of the few good people left in Fatah and the PA refuse to release him. Fatah abandoned him . I also updated my link with a pro Palestine source instead. The JCPA still a proof that Israel use the PA while insulting it at the same time . Collaborators like Abass are not respected neither by Palestinians and neither by Israeli
And where exactly do you place Hamas with their bombing campaign that led to Netanyahu, who wanted to end Olso, being elected to replace Peres, who wanted to enact it?
Israel want the whole land since it’s creation so stop blaming everything on Hamas . Hamas reply to occupation brutality that’s all and occupier force always committed more crimes against any act of resistance . The plo respected the term, Israel didn’t because they do not want peace. If you accept Israel excuses you are not better than any Zionist
After the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine - Ben Gurion
Partition might be only a temporary arrangement for the next twenty to twenty-five years - Chaim Weizmann
There will be no Palestinian state—this land is ours - Netenyahu on September 11, 2025
You seem to struggle with the concept that Israel (and Palestine) consists of more than one person or faction and that there are factions that want peace and factions that want war. Hamas made sure the Israeli faction that wanted peace lost power in '96
You seem to not understand that treaties and deals do not become null when a prime minister or president change . The accords was between Israel as a state and the PLO. Netanyahu represent the state of Israel, Hamas is not a member of the PLO. So Israel can’t claim Hamas actions make the accords null and no matter who is wrong illegal settlements are never justified. Genocide is never justified either
Mb, I should’ve mentioned “covertly” supporting Hamas.
The Qatari money was used for infrastructure projects. Israel as the occupying force it the one who allow money to go even to the west bank of the PA yet weirdly the rhetoric is only used to against Hamas . Hamas rely of smuggling for it’s military wing and arms.
How can you convince anybody that Hamas works for Israel against the “good” Palestinian authority who is collaborating for Israeli security while not protecting a single Palestinian from the settlers?
Hamas is crazy as Crazy Horse was “crazy”. You know what both have/had in common? They are/were fighting displacement of their friends and family due to colonizing powers. The only difference is the latter’s people suffered almost complete annihilation while the former is a work on progress. If the British didn’t insist on making Palestine their reservation for Jews, then Palestinian freedom fighters wouldn’t have had to fight Zionists violently encroaching upon their native land.
What? Hamas’s position of “give us a Palestinian state and we’ll give them our weapons” is very reasonable. Their lack of respect for civilian lives is one thing, but “batshit crazy” ain’t it. Why do you think they’re batshit crazy?
Fatah. Marwan Barghouti. Palestinian civil society calling for BDS.
Just because Israel wants the Hamas scarecrow as its opponent doesn’t mean the rest of Palestinian society is irrelevant.
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Really? No good guys? How about the protestors and activists? Or or or how about the MAJORITY OF PALESTINIANS STILL LEFT ALIVE WHO ARE LITERAL CHILDREN?
Yeah I’m sure OP meant that the children are bad guys. What a hot take. Get real
The point is that Hamas is made out to be much more than it actually is in that country. These deaths are not just Hamas and Israeli deaths, like lots of Americans seem to think they are.
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Depends on if you consider the civilians stuck in the middle of the conflict to be “in the fight”. They’re certainly casualties of it.