I bet the date wasn’t in ISO 8601
I’m more of an RFC 3339 kinda guy
Heretic!
He prefers freedom rather than give money to useless companies.
arrays don’t have indices. lists have indices. arrays have offsets.
I think you got that backwards sport. Index implies direct access but offset implies traversal.
no? an offset is just a number that you add to an address to get a new number. and index in a generic position marker.
The real reason she won’t call back.
indeed. permanently off by 1.
This is a language dependent semantic difference.
I’ll see myself out
hey no you can’t logic your way out of this! i wanted an argument!
No you didn’t
I said good day sir!
Good day (sir); ftfy
§6.7.9 of the C11 standard says they have elements with indices:
If an array of unknown size is initialized, its size is determined by the largest indexed element with an explicit initializer. The array type is completed at the end of its initializer list.
it also states in section 6.7.7 (“type names”) that
If the pointer operand points to an element of an array object, and the array is large enough, the result points to an element offset from the original element such that the difference of the subscripts of the resulting and original array elements equals the integer expression.
note also that your example is the only occurrence of the word “index” in the entire document that isn’t just referring to the actual index at the end.
Says who?
By definition, an index is
a number or symbol or expression (such as an exponent) associated with another to indicate a mathematical operation to be performed or to indicate use or position in an arrangement
Since the arrays offsets alao tell us about the items’s position in the array, is it not then an index?
People take these terms way too seriously. Hell, many languages have their “list” implemented as an array. What then do you call the index/offset?
if you want my opinion (<- see now you can’t tell me i’m wrong, it’s an opinion) then the difference is that an array is by definition a memory address that’s designated as the beginning of an array, and it’s got an offset because the first element is at that specific address and further items are offset from that address. so you add the offset to the address to get the nth item. a list, meanwhile, can be basically any implementation under the hood, but it’s commonly a linked list. the way you get the nth index there is you count up from the first position. since the implementation is opaque and may be spread out in memory you can’t arithmetic your way to an index, you need to follow the pointers.
java’s arraylist is a list backed by an array. java’s vector is a list backed by a linked list.
That doesn’t really address what you call it. Names only really just exist to get your point across. Inexperienced devs may not know what an offset means (or why we use that), so index does the job. An experience dev knows how it works anyway, so whether you say index or offset won’t matter. By virtue of the common denominator, I simply use index everywhere.
depends on the area you’re working in. it’s a pretty important distinction in embedded software.
Why? I’ve worked as an embedded dev for a few years and nobody in my team cared what it was called.
because making sure offsets are correct come up a lot when you’re memory-mapping IO.
Right but whether they’re correct or not doesn’t depend on the name you use. Every programmer worth his name knows arrays start at offset zero even if you don’t call it that.
Um actually they have strides and offsets.
Adding my fuel to this fight
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Array/indexOf
javascript doesn’t have arrays. the backing data structure is a doubly-linked list.
and the backing for that is linear or page addressed MOS transistors, spinning rust or flippy-round magnets.
do you have a source that indicates mainstream JS engines internally uses a list structure for arrays? I can’t find one.
skipped a few steps there i think.
anyway, good question. led me to some cursed code.
the ArrayObject in spidermonkey is an interface to either a TypedArrayObject or a SharedArrayObject. those both have an inner ArrayBuffer object, which is a view into ArrayBufferObjectMaybeShared, which contains a refcounted vector of uint8 pointers, regardless of the datatype. soooo all arrays in javascript are… strings?
If I’m understanding you correctly, they’re basically doing the same thing as Python under the hood and using a heap-allocated array (vector) of pointers? If so, that should still be orders of magnitude faster than a linked list.
If their implementation is actually a linked list, colour me shocked. My impression was that JavaScript is “decently fast”. I’ve never even considered writing high-performance code in it, but I’ve heard that the compiler can optimise extremely aggressively, and it’s used so widely that I couldn’t imagine that it had glaring performance issues like what I would expect to see if every array was actually a linked list under the hood.
can’t a jit move things around enough that a linked list could be transformed into a memory-backed array if the access pattern requires it.
Sure it can, as long as it retains behaviour according to whatever standard it needs to comply to. My point was rather that I would be very surprised if the actual implementation (at memory level) was a linked list.
skipped a few steps there i think.
thanks for the considered reply. didn’t mean to jump all the way down to electrons and sound so flippant.
my claim is that JavaScript arrays are arrays because the spec defines their behavior as such. the implementation details are absolutely interesting from a performance perspective and I was genuinely curious how an internally linked list implementation would actually work, real-world. regardless… almost every interaction I have ever had with a JS programmer has ended in “its strings all the way down”… so… I mean… yes-ish?
loved your poking of the hornets nest in this thread :-)
i was thinking between the linked list and the transistors :)
also, i mean… what you might call an array i might call a vector. js arrays allow elements of different types, so they are by definition not arrays in the traditional sense. them being chars internally does make sense in a gross way.
That’s a different kind of array (Float32Array etc.), not the “normal” kind.
i couldn’t actually find any of that in spidermonkey. i was looking in js/vm/arrayobject and its parents, didn’t see any others.
I’m guessing it’s this? https://searchfox.org/firefox-main/source/js/src/builtin/Array.cpp
I’m aware, I added fuel, not peace and love
You can’t take my ‘i’, we have been together.
you can’t spell offset without off. as in fuck.
(affectionate)
She was a Lua girl
Her name was Lua as well
Lua Dipa?
🎶her name was lua🎶 🎶she was a coder🎶
I was too late to make the Lua joke, damn
Worse. She prefers Matlab over Numpy.
I think I’m going to be sick.
Not in MATLAB/Julia! (But like yes under the hood computers start at 0)
Maybe the date is an engineer/mathematician, then the arguments just creates silos between disciplines
MATLAB, Julia, R, Fortran, Lua.
Imo the real point of contention is column vs row major ordering in matrices. Actually so cursed trying to move between languages.
Also lua. Well, kinda: those weirdos use hashmaps for everything, iirc
Screams in Lua
And R
Julia and Mathematica
And MATLAB
And myaxe.
And FORTRAN (I do nothing but SCREAM in FORTRAN anyway)
R wins again! I’m grateful every time i write the vector 1:n
It’s useful though. It’s more of a point when it doesn’t work.
Anyway, there only one thing better than a sensible solution, and that’s a standard.
Djikstra was so fucking wrong with this and people who parrot this are so annoying.
Sure, an offset starts at zero, but an index can very well start at one. Not all arrays represent a physical offset, please stop pretending your inferior zero only indexing is in any way superior.
Sometimes math is just simpler from one. When you’re translating math to code, one based indexes are usually better.
I shall not lower myself to use the newfangled Mathematical inventions of the Arabs and instead keep doing Mathematics like the Romans!
If your math uses numbers it’s not real math.
Technically Real math only uses numbers.
No
I believe it was a joke where real maths refer to maths dealing with real numbers.
Fuck the real numbers. Numbers are an abstraction.
Zero is a “real” number. Negative 5 is a “real” number. But have you ever seen zero apples or sailed on negative 5 boats? Uh uh no you haven’t. They are not real.
In reality there’s only existence or nonexistence, it could be a thing or it could not be anything at all, though the latter is actually impossible. All other things are then not the same as that. If you line them up you can make statements like this thing is not that thing. This is basically the succession function, and we’re already ahead of ourselves.
From there on we can start inventing more abstractions by using Peanos axioms, but it’s all abstractions, because the second axiom state that something is the same as something, and nothing in reality is ever the same as something else.
It’s all made up. Reality does not have numbers at all.
No
In economics, many indices start at 100.
Economics? Completely replaced by bistromathics
There is no second date because
YYYY-MM-DD'T'HH:ii:ss'Z'is the only acceptable date.Unless you’re programming in VBA. But at that point you’re already fucked anyway.
VBA arrays start at 0, unless you explicitly set it to start at 1.
Technically, VBA arrays start wherever you want them to and end wherever you want them to. Thing is, since VBA is usually interfacing with MS Office, you’re heavily dependent on what the office APIs do. And unfortunately, they very often start counting with 1. So practically, you’re generally starting your counting with 1.
fucked anyway
So you’re saying she’s BASIC?
cries in X++
TIL
My suggestion for people who want to get into developing for Dynamics 365 F&O and X++:
Don’t.
spoiler
Although I will admit that with the limited number of D365 devs out there, you can probably get some good work. Just … you have to jump through some hoops to be able to tinker with it, since it’s MS’s big ERP system.
You dodged a bullet, my friend.
There won’t be a date number 2, she will propose on date number 1
date = [“happens”, “does not happen”]
print(“date 1”, date[1])
There isn‘t even a date number 1
she forgot and is already getting her guts rearranged by Chad Thundercock 10.5"
Come at me like that and I’ll know you are still a boy.
The picture in meme made me think like it’s a europenized version of Kazuma Kiryu, who is conviniently a long-time friend with Makoto Date.
Like if the people who handled the Prince of Persia movie did a Yakuza movie?
I want to see it no matter how bad it is.
Btw, the 2007 LAD movie is lit if you haven’t seen it. It has a scene of drinking staminan in the middle of the fight. One of my favorite vg adaptations.
