Every second Nvidia abandons consumers in favor of businesses for the majority of their sales, China improves their manufacturing and prepares to flood the global market, including the USA, with cheap yet powerful GPUs.
It’s only a matter of time before this AI bubble pops, and the US government bails out these corporations with our fucking tax dollars.
It’s not going to pop because it’s about building datacenters and Ai for the control system of human beings. Not for chat bots.
This is the infrastructure for dystopia that is coming up and people think it’s about AI chat bots… Why do people continue to trust what these companies say instead of look at what they do?
Nvidia is heavily invested in robots as well. Because they know where this is going.
From chat bots to murder bots in a blink of an eye.
Dont worry, there are no tax dollars left.
The cmegroup, where metals and oil are traded, has a profit of 770 million dollars.
Meaning it will take over a decades of the cme’s straight up profit to pay off one of the cheeto in chief’s recent grifts.
One.
He has pulled off multiple ten thousand million dollar heists of us taxpayer money in the last year.
There wont be a bailout, these fucks are spending that cash as quickly as they possibly can under the expectation that the dollar is about to be worthless.
Because they helped speed run it’s crash
Chinese GPUs are complete crap. People bought them and reviewed them, not only did they not perform even close to what they said, the drivers were barely what you could consider usable.
Replace GPU with cars and you have a basic statement about their cars from a few years ago.
For now! Based on a quick search, it looks like a lot of their consumer card manufacturing only began ramping up around 2020 - that’s not a lot of time to catch up to the giants.
What they do have though is government funding and a push to catch up to fill in the gap that the US blocking NVIDIA and AMD created.
I have several friends that work at AMD and NVIDIA in the graphics (hw and sw) groups. They’re all in a slow transition to other compute groups. Their comments are that once we got ray tracing there wasn’t much in terms of hardware optimization for them other than increasing memory bandwidth. Everything else comes down to software.
Multi frame generation and dlss has made give improvements. It’s pretty clear that with a little more improvements, gpus will be able to output 5-10x the data with the same hardware. I’m not surprised they are focusing on that right now.
Maybe 5-10%?
I can expect 5-10% hardware improvements, but the sugar e improvements on the 50 series is amazing. The 50 series is the new 1080ti in terms of the jump.
Output 5-10x with same HW? I need what you’re smoking because the current HW can barely handle current amounts of data, let alone a magnitude more
Multi frame generation was already possible with Lossless. The fact that it’s only officially supported by one generation of cards is absolute bullshit.
Lossless adds lag, mfg uses a whole different gpu pipeline. They are not even close to the same performance. I’ve used both and it’a night and day in terms of total system latency. I would never use lossless for gaming that requires input speed. Now using lossless for visual novels to limit cpu demand, but that is about it
At least for now, the consumer DIY PC market as we know it is gone.
I’m kinda glad I kept reading into this the past 6 months to a year. I made the decision to buy a beefy PC and I don’t intend to do any upgrades over the next 10 years. Did this juuuust a littlebit before the RAM’s price spiking up.
Gone is too strong of a word. Inaccessible to more Americans then before, yes, but not gone.
How so? Other than price of components of course.
“How so? Without mentioning the one reason that it is.”
I mean you keep hearing about manufacturing cof components stopping. Is that happening? Otherwise the market is still there, just not accessible to many of us.
Maybe now devs will care about optimization since nobody can buy GPUs hence no one will pay for a game that they cant run. Either optimization or bankrupcy ig.
my cynical mind just thinks that they will just sell licenses to big corpo with those big data centres who will push for online remote gaming and two things will happen, either massive exodus of gaming studios or clueless majority of population will simply gobble small subscription fees to game online at 4fps
Honestly, this is such a nice silver lining, my 3080 that’s like 6 years old is still working fine even on newer titles since no one is making/ buying better cards (or cards with more VRAM) in large quantities.
I can’t remember having a GPU this old that was still relevant, my old 780ti was so limited by its 3gb vram.
Just wait until driver support is ended by nvidia. I have two P40 which are powerful and work well but nvidia just ended support (for compute) but I think the point still stands. Maybe it will be better with the new oss drivers
Just use the last supported driver then
Well that works until all frameworks like pytorch and co drop support for the compute level because the cuda libs drop them. Good luck compiling everything from source yourself.
Good luck compiling everything from source yourself.
I use Linux for fun
Amen
Isn’t there a useable open source driver these days?
Noveau drivers are useful in a “render my desktop on my privacy-centric distro” kind of way, not in the “I’d like to play games released after the 2000s and actually do serious modelling work” kind of way. At least for now.
I think NVK is the default implimentation these days
I haven’t paid much attention on the matter, but how are the official open source drivers for the 2000 series and newer?
Functional. NVIDIA didn’t truly “open source” their drivers to anywhere near the same degree as AMD (AFAIK they didn’t give much for the community to work with), so you’re forced to use the proprietary ones in most cases. That might change over time, though.
Unfortunately Linux open source driver for Nvidia is extremely underdeveloped. If you want Linux machine with super long term support, go either with AMD or Intel
Perhaps that will change as a result of NVIDIA’s shift. Then again, optimism has yet to pay off in my lifetime.
I kinda feel the same way about my 6950xt, granted i haven’t bought many modern titles recently and still have a backlog, but it honestly just seems to be chugging along nicely paired with a 5800X3D. Nvidia 3000 series/amd 6000 series seems like one of those generations that aged nicely, only issue was how inflated the pricing was. I ended up snatching the 6950xt around the time the 7000 series came out for like 600 bucks, but i never would have bought it for the 1000+ pricetag it had for the longest time.
At least with the RTX3000s, the prices were only jacked up by scalpers. Then NVIDIA became the scalper.
I used to have 1060 3GB and it worked well. I did an upgrade 2 years ago for a mini pc that has 6650m with 8GB and so far I do not feel the need to upgrade for at least next 5 years. Of course this doesn’t mean that I play modern titles on ultra, but everything I play runs smooth as butter.
I think even 1060 6GB is fine today. Not flashy and powerful, but should be able to run many games just fine. One also could seek 1080Ti used and be set for a very long time with that one. I see many people reporting their 1080Ti is still running everything fine and no fuss. 9 years old card :)
1080Ti gang here, I’m not playing all the cool new shit but ARC Raiders, for instance, is absolutely no problem and in general I don’t really feel a need to upgrade. Until the steam machine arrives, that is 😄
Gabe Cube isn’t going to be that much faster unless you build your own steam machine with stronger GPU
They’ll push everything to consoles so they can control the hardware format, save dev money on not needing to code for the hundreds of variants of PC hardware, then force you to pay for everything from online gaming access to a proprietary game store and their cloud gaming service. They’ll remove upgradability so you have to buy a new system and pay for new subscriptions all over again.
They want you trapped in their walled garden to extract the most money from you.
I don’t think they care about any of this.
They’re selling to AI slop centres faster than they can make them. Gamers don’t fit into their plans at all.
Well folks… back to emulators and fitgirl games it is. Fuck the market if they think that I’m gonna open my wallet for these overpriced consoles and games
Who will? Nvidia? No lol
They don’t have a game store, an OS, or make game consoles lol. Only the switch uses Nvidia.
Why would you say that? C’mon, Captain Sarcasm, use your brain.
Consoles pay for proprietary GPUs from Nvidia or whatever supplier. Just like they used to before they designed them to upgradable. You couldn’t think of that?
Could also just not buy that shit. I’ll play games on a Pi if I have to.
From what I’ve read, they don’t care because they don’t want us buying them. Their big picture sees us doing online cloud gaming through a virtual computer that you connect to. They no longer want anybody to have home PC’s.
Edit typos
But the lag!
Dooms all these yes. There is no cheating the speed of light
Imagine instead of cloud gaming we bring this hardware directly to the customer by renting it to them. Reduced latency but still maintaining those hefty profit margins.
that’s fine. my library is big enough that I probably don’t need to buy a single game for the rest of my life
I will, but I won’t need to.
When that happens, its imperitive that you dont participate. We need to reuse, and repair current and older machines.
I’d much rather game on old hardware or janky arm based stuff than use hardware as a service, even if it means being 10+ years behind in performance. There are so many great games that will run on pretty much anything
Just think how cheap gaming would be when it’s all on old hardware too. Or when you can get a raspberry pi 8 and just emulate it.
I got a XP PC for playing The Sims 3 and some Lego games and such on it. The PC was my first ever PC, and I have since upgraded it with free parts I have found in the trash… You won’t believe what kind of top-notch-at-the-time things people just throw away. It’s quite pleasant lil machine, my lil machine.
That’s awesome! Unfortunately I have a pretty high hardware fail rate, at least for motherboards and gpu’s. But I also have/had a penchant for overclocking everything, so guess I’m kind of asking for it. Most spectacularly had a nvidia 780i sli motherboard let the smoke out from running a q6600 at 3.2ghz for a few years. That was a rad platform, still feel kinda bad about that one tbh
I ardently wish that gamers, or at least people who spend money on games, were better at withholding their filthy lucre.
Nah honestly, there is enough games in existence that I will never, ever use shit like cloud gaming. I’d rather stop alltogether.
That would be great. Their price-to-performance ratio was unjustified anyway. Time for another or new company to step up.
Good. Let them dig their own grave. The world is currently figuring out how to do training and inference without using GPUs. They will ultimately be left behind.
They’re making a solid bet here.
Look at the breakdown from Steam surveys, it’s almost always ~75% Nvidia. They know they have the gamer market down on lock and they know gamers aren’t going to buy something else as long as their competitor can’t fake as many frames as them and they know they have a lock on developers in a Ouroboros of vendor lock of more fake frames and AI slop filters that leads to more gamers who clamor for more fake frames and bad AI instagram filters.
Meanwhile they’re making money hand over fist with stupid AI and that money is money without relying directly on being AI for the most part so if the bubble bursts it’s not like they’re going to be overly hurt and then they know they can pivot right back to fake frames and slop filters and gamers will come running right back.
It could change relatively quickly though. Consider that Valve’s devices are all ultimately AMD devices. If Valve’s bet pays off, then those numbers should change (to what extent, I don’t know).
The Linux gaming community in general (which small as it is, is growing) is definitely shifting AMD. On the nvidia side are a bunch of driver woes and poor support. Meanwhile AMD’s drivers are literally baked into the kernel. No contest for ease.
This could all be wrong. Definitely. But the optimist in me sees a glimmer of hope depending on where the enthusiast community goes, how successful Valve is with their coming machines, etc.
Orrrrr… The whole PC enthusiast community dies because AI keeps driving prices into the sky and it never recovers in any meaningful way.
The steam machine is DOA. It’s less powerful than the base PS5 and series S. It doesn’t have DLSS because it’s AMD. It is woefully underpowered and is going to be expensive as hell for the lackluster performance to boot. Oh and it can’t play most of the most played MP games, or the upcoming GTA6.
D. O. A.
I mean, I’d read the post you’re commenting on a bit more carefully before thinking DLSS is a good thing…
And it really isn’t as bad as all that. I suspect you’ve never tried Linux gaming.
In any event, Steam Machine is only one device. Steam Deck is already quite successful, so it stands to reason that the next gen one will be as well. (And less relevant, but Steam Frame is also looking like it could be a knockout hit for VR)
Similar situation here, my late 2010s Nvidia card is still good so no need to get an AMD one to replace it yet. Would be interested in FPS benchmarks between my card and current cards but there isn’t much I can find. Mostly just ambiguous numerical scores.
I heard steam was trying to approximate performance from specs and would love to see something like that if it can work.
If I could get like +200% performance for a cheap more power efficient card I probably would but I don’t think they are that much better yet.
Tbh the issue is price, newer cards are both quite a bit more powerful and power efficient. Went from 1080 to 3070 ti and now 5070 ti and each upgrade was a significant step up. Going straight from 1080 to my current card would be an insane jump. BTW this is based on performance I’ve seen in games, not benchmarks.
I am on RTX2070 and would be looking at xx60 or cheaper. Not sure if performance gains would be that significant yet.
In a gold rush, the smart businessman doesn’t prospect, he sells shovels.
I’m stuck with Nvidia because of ray tracing…
I know there’s so much hate for it, but I’m such a whore for lighting. People can’t tell the difference or don’t care, but a properly ray traced and globally illuminated scene sends me to the moon. Maybe I’m just weird but show me a light entering a room, bouncing off the floor and carrying a touch of the floor color with the light as it splashes on a nearby object/wall and I’m stunned. Properly ray traced reflections are amazing too, but it’s really the proper lighting that gets me.
Are you saying AMD doesn’t do ray tracing? Because I’m pretty sure it does and looks great in the games I’ve played recently.
I think AMD just consistently trails Nvidia in performance in this area unfortunately.
That may be. I have never been someone to expect the best performance with the highest graphics settings, but I will say that my AMD card does very well with insanely great visuals. Some of the games I’ve played recently look better than cgi movies from years ago. The lighting is so beautiful I assume it must be raytraced.
Fake frames?
DLSS Frame Generation uses “AI” to interpolate frames in games that support it. It’s basically free framerate if your card supports it. They’re not really “fake,” they’re interpolated.
Edit: For what it’s worth, AMD also does this with FSR in games that support it.
“in games that support it” mostly kills my internet in features like this. I play a lot of small and sometimes older indie games that probably don’t support it.
Small and older indie games don’t need frame gen.
Some have higher graphics settings that may benefit from more powerful hardware still.
Interesting. Crazy that ai could run fast enough to provide such intense calculations… in just a couple ms, apparently! If it looks good I don’t see an issue other than maybe that’s power intensive? Anyhow, thank you for the response.
It’s really pretty incredible. As I understand it (though I’m far from an expert and could be wrong) it’s using tensor cores that wouldn’t be engaged otherwise during gaming, so it’s essentially free performance at the cost of power consumption. Means I can run at half the framerate I want and use DLSS to fill in the gaps.
For example, with Forza Horizon 6 if I turn on Deep Learning Anti-Aliasing (DLAA) and frame generation I can easily keep a steady 144fps and it looks MUCH better than with the default settings hovering around 100fps. Not just smoother (not sure I can personally tell the difference between 100 and 144) but much better anti-aliasing, too.
Fuck nVidia for a bunch of reasons, but I have to admit I love my 4070 Ti super. And it’s not even a top end card.
It should be noted that the real reason gamers want better framerates is so you get a faster response between you making an input and the game doing something.
Frame generation turning 30 fps into 120 fps may well make things look smooth to an observer, but they’ll still play like a PS4 game in treacle.
Maybe. In my use case it’s bumping from 72fps to 144fps (I have a 40 series card so I can only do 2x frame generation). In that case, the delay to allow for interpolation is likely around 14 milliseconds, potentially slightly longer (although nVidia claims there is a predictive element to DLSS frame generation, so it might not require the next true frame to be generated yet, I’m not sure). I can’t react to anything in that time anyway. Human reaction time is much slower than 14 milliseconds (or, indeed, than the 33ms that 30fps to 120fps with 4x would cause).
I think the benefits to smoother framerate is about more than just latency. I suspect our brains process better when the visual input is smoother. Makes it easier to track movement and such. Even professional F1 drivers and esports players have reaction times at around 150ms minimum, so the latency is something we’re always compensating for (indeed, there is a processing delay in our brains from when visual input is received, latency is literally something our brains compensate for all the time in our daily lives).
But obviously if people are more worried about that latency they can disable frame generation and lower their graphical fidelity to achieve the same framerates. Stuff like frame generation and super resolution is very much about eking every bit of graphical performance out of the silicon as possible, and isn’t strictly necessary.
Streamed games over 100ms+ latency before and it’s felt fine though, that part depends a lot on the game. Flight/space sim isn’t going to care much.
I suspect it doesn’t matter too much on joypad controlled games either.
Mouse aiming and especially VR are more likely to feel the difference between real and fake frames.
That’s a good point which I’d not considered. Yeah, generated frames can’t really respond to you in real time.
Everything they leave is up for grabs. Someone will take their place. Let’s just hope it’s soon.
I’m starting to think we will end up with no high-end dedicated graphics hardware being available for home use.
we’ll all just buy used-up AI GPUs and some genius will figure out how to run them from exisiting drivers and we’ll have to pirate the software because the GPU manufacturers will try and lock down their ‘IP’. Eventually, the card makers will throw us a bone and provide a much shittier piece of software, but we’ll all just keep using the cracked one.
AI GPUs either just use the same standard driver packages that gaming GPUs use, or they use slightly cut down ones because they physically lack internal hardware like display heads or rt cores. With those it’s not a matter of drivers, it’s a physical lack of hardware that a game engine or display would expect.
If you had an rtx 6000 Blackwell in your PC right now you’d just install the same drivers as the 5090, 5050, or 3060 (its the same driver across all three of these)
I wonder if display ports can be added. If they become cheap enough and demand is strong enough, I could see there being a market for modded cards. I once bought a weird laptop CPU soldered onto a board that made it fit into a desktop Intel socket, and it worked.
Common misconception, display head =/= display socket.
It’s not just missing the physical plug, it’s missing the entire logic circuit dedicated to rendering and encoding a display output. Even if you wired an hdmi or dp to the board, it would have nothing to drive and time the signal.
That circuitry isn’t a separate chip it’s physically part of the GPU die architecture and you can’t add it on later via a mod.
Probably easier to build a modified driver that uses the Blackwell card for rendering and pushes the frames back to a lower powered display card.
You could definitely do that for rasterization, but if any part of the graphics API required something the card didn’t have (like ray tracing) you couldn’t synchronize the work between it and another RT capable card fast enough.
See also: why they killed crossfire and sli in the gaming space, and why the derivative works of that technology only exists in the data center for non latency-intensive workloads.
GPU pass through to a VM perhaps? Home cloud gaming servers!!! Get a bunch of old AI GPUs and stick them in a system and give each VM it’s own GPU and stick steam on the VM. Play games from anything that can run steam link.
Basic output? probably. Gaming? Probably not. Again same problem of some cards missing hardware components that are required for a rendering pipeline, regardless of physical or virtual outputs
The 6000 Blackwell has all of this and would totally work, the H200 does not, etc
deleted by creator
Buy an AMD GPU Challenge (Impossible)
This depends a lot on your definition of “high-end” in this context. If something like the RX 9070 XT falls within your expectations, you could definitely buy an AMD card over Nvidia especially now that their features like FSR is getting pretty good. But Nvidia offers cards like the 4090 and 5090 that AMD simply isn’t even close to competing against, so if that’s the kind of performance you want you’re sadly stuck with Nvidia for the foreseeable future. Luckily, not that many people actually need something that powerful, but the point still stands.
Even an RX9060 would probably be a mild improvement over my RTX2070, but don’t think it would be a massive change either. So not worth it while my 2070 works still.
Also these cards are room heaters.
AMD is very close to compete against the 4090 and 5090, in a few years they will have the same power for halve the price, that’s why you didn’t mention 3090 or the titan series. Consumer GPUs, and i’m not sure the Titan/90s can even be called that, will keep improving even without NVIDIA, just at a slightly slower rate.
The reason I specifically mentioned 4090 and 5090 is just that those are the only two cards AMD does not have an answer for right now. In all the other segments they have solid options. And to be clear, I really wish AMD was a real option at the top end as well, but they just aren’t yet and looking at their best card vs a 5090 it’s not even in the same ballpark. My worry is that while I agree that AMD will have a 5090 competitor in a few years, Nvidia will also keep pushing unless they actually pull out of the market to focus on AI and datacenters (which they very well might do). Right now their lead is massive, but I could definitely see it getting much closer if nothing else.
looks at my 7900 XTX
looks at my older VII in a family machine
uhh…
This is the end goal, to push us to cloud gaming where corps hold all the cards. I’m willing to bet RAM prices won’t recover to reasonable levels either, and CPU supplies will be next. AI is the current reason being pushed on us, Crypto was the previous one. The excuses will keep coming, but the goal will stay the same.
i have the suspicion that the next GPU i’ll buy will be from a chinese manufacturer.
Or, alternatively, the world recognizes that AI in its current form is only cost effective in special cases and only a hole to shovel money into when used broadly. In this case, the hundreds of thousands of Blackwell GPUs sitting in warehouses will lose their worth rapidly and i can build my own AI cluster for myself from the fire sales.
I hope you’re right, but the other companies that could make them all seem interested in AI too.
Well, unless we want to keep playing the new Triple-A games and enjoy the hyper graphics, I don’t really see a problem. We don’t need to keep upgrading and building the best possible PCs… We could just settle at some point. Clean them regularly, change pastes, get the same-level parts if something breaks… There’s plenty of new indie games that would run on a toaster and still be perfectly enjoyable.
The next PC I build, well, build with using the parts I already got and/or can get used from online or from my friends, will be an offline DVD player with Linux. Radical, yes and not for everyone. But it’s an option…
Yep. In fact I wrote a blob somewhere (will link back if I find it) that for most users I believe we reached “peak good-enough” compute few years ago already.
Sure for some very VERY specific use cases, it’s never enough (e.g. super high res video editing, photo realistic rendering, weather simulations) but for the average Joe with normal eyes… at some point you just browse Website that show photos and text, even 4K videos… you don’t NEED 8K or a more powerful CPU when you are jolting down your 5 family holiday options. We got into a habit that year after year we would get significantly better hardware but… you can store your entire life of text, photos, documents, etc in a microSD that fits in your wallet and costs you the price of a meal.
It’s weird that we needed the AI bubble to realize it but that’s OK.
Good enough until you run factorio megafactories. Now you need 8 rack mounted servers.
…so how long till all the big game companies put some weight on our end of the stick cause they see their profits somewhat tied to gamers being able to find and afford parts?
(i know its never, but a fella can dream)
GDC was full of developers talking about how the lack of hardware is changing how they are approaching game design
Hopefully it’ll force more optimization. We have incredibly powerful hardware already. If they just took the time to optimize we wouldn’t need 5090s to run 60fps. This may be a boon overall.
It’s not even just “more optimisation”, just make some lower graphically demanding settings or don’t make it so graphically demanding in the first place.
If they’re not breaking out the numbers for gaming GPUs separately, it’s not because they don’t care it’s because the numbers are terrible.
In what way? They’re selling all they make, but every gigabyte of ram could have been used in a Ai chip that sells for 20x more. There’s usually not unlimited demand.
Nope
