I’ve got no problem with them, but these are obviously kids who grew up in a different age than me, and it shows, I know what could seem a joke to me could come off different to them. Especially this being In the trades and the type of jokes we make here. I don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable, we’re all trying to just get through the day after all
Edit: I have learned, they used to be female, transitioned to male. (So trans-masc? I’m probably messing that up) Lesbian, and non-binary, thankfully they brought it up which was very helpful as I wasn’t sure if it was appropriate to ask
Yeah… since you are asking, try not to do anything. They’re people. They like jokes too.
Of course, all advise given in this thread is valuable, but I mean being overcautious may be the “special treatment” that is there routinely reminding them “oh you’re different”. They don’t need that. Just respect.
Hey, Non-binary trans masc person in trades here.
I can tell you how I perceive different types of co-worker if it helps you want to dial in what it’s like on the other side of the experience. There’s layers to the whole situation and as non-binary folks we understand what we are asking for isn’t automatically going to click and requires people to figure us out.
First up : Most of us end of day aren’t going to rock the boat for anything less than fully agregious behaviour so calls to report other people for being mildly offensive are probably not actually going to go anywhere. Most of us are scared of being labelled “a problem” so we just take the hits when they come. If you are a boss and notice a non-binary person sticking closer to specific people and avoiding others there’s a good chance that they’ve found the people who are safe and avoiding ones who aren’t. A great accommodation that can invisibly help is just to recognize this strata and if a task nessesitates putting people together try and pair along these lines. A lot of co-workers wait until other people aren’t around to let their nastier behaviour shine.
Now to co-worker types. Aside from the full on transphobe or problem persons there’s a range of different stages of cool people.
The “I don’t really get it” Co-worker pays lip service to the polite aspects of using pronouns. They are the type to introduce you to others by misgendering you and then flap their hands and go “Oh no sorry ‘they’”. We know they don’t get it or don’t really care. The misgendering still hurts but they are fairly benign. They make these accidents non maliciously and are afforded grace. If they step in it we basically disregard because they aren’t really worth the effort of getting too comfortable around. We make these accommodations for strangers daily. Annoying but nessisary.
The “in training” co-worker is one whom is encountering their very first trans person. They want you to be their Obi wan and their enthusiasm is a bit of a double edged sword at times. It’s tiring to teach people to dance when they keep stepping on your feet but the job needs doing. Some of us veiw this as our own brand of service to the cause of normalizing ourselves more widely. Some of us just don’t want to be bothered. Either way, just wanting to learn is heaps better than ambivalence. If you fuck up something, don’t make a big deal about it. It’s not that you’re a terrible person and should have known better. Our stuff takes practice and we know it’s not intuitive.
The “A little too up in our shit” co-worker is excited to know the real you but looks at you as a beautiful creature in need of preservation. They might seek to advocate on your behalf or behind your back but the attempt is clumsy and often at odds with a non-binary person’s desire to just get through the workday as a regular human and not make waves. Good enthusiasm sure, we’re probably friends but for the love of God we’re adults and we can sort out our own shit if need be.
The “Understands the Assignment” co-worker is just comfortable to be around. They don’t have to be the most tuned in to all the nuance about our specific needs in ways we require more out of partners, family and friends but they treat our basic requirements as no big deal, maybe they occasionally ask questions to check in if they catch us struggling or reacting but aren’t going to narc to the boss on our behalf. They either avoid all stereotypes associated with sex or in the case of trans mascs/trans femmes they treat us like one of the boys/girls. Gold standard.
You’re not a dick for getting someone’s pronouns wrong… You’re a dick if you intentionally and continuously misgender them on purpose.
I still mess up my sister’s spouse. They’re NB, but kept their name, hobbies, etc. To me, they’re the exact same awesome person they’ve always been, so I still screw up and call them by male pronouns.
I 100% support them, but I screw up and it feels bad.
Well, I have had two people tell me very rudely that I’m an asshole because I got their pronoun wrong because they had it at the start of the presentation somewhere. And I also have had dozens more who corrected me politely a couple of times and then I’d just remember the right pronouns.
Assholes are assholes magrinalized or not.
Exactly. Sure it sucks when it happens by accident, but it’s to be expected to some extent. It’s when someone is doing it intentionally to fuck with you that it really gets under your skin. It’s disrespectful.
I’m trans, and have also worked with trans kids. Sometimes outed myself when it was safe - showing young trans men that yes, you can be a man.
It really comes down to “what name and pronouns would you me to call you by?”
If you want to go above and beyond: “would you like me to correct/step in for you if someone calls you by the wrong names/pronouns?” I feel this is a place where adult advocates can have good impact.
“Does your family know/should I use your legal name when talking to your family?”
See the child as a person who deserves dignity and respect, who is in a vulnerable position and does need unconditional support. Which is true for all children. You don’t have to put up a progress flag or wear a rainbow pin - these can certainly be very good things to do - but at the end of the day, just honor the child.
If you call somebody by their name, you can never mess up their gender.
Ok Alex, Shelby, Erin. Unless you mean like if you ignore the entire concept and rely solely on their name with no formalities.
I think they meant to just avoid using pronouns.
Which is an awkward and strange way to speak to people.
There are actually people who prefer you not to use pronouns when referring to them, and indeed always use their name. Might be awkward at first, but you get used to it.
People can prefer lots of stuff, “this aspect of the English language is not to apply to me” is a lot of cognitive load to ask for.
As a trans woman who routinely has to deal with “shop talk” my advice is that since theyre young explain the way that it works to them and let them know how to speak up when shit gets uncomfortable.
Cleaning it up and getting professional and polite would theoretically be great, but the fact is that their career will involve this and if everyone has to clean up their language resentment will build and people will just exclude them. Meanwhile everyone should feel comfortable saying “too far” or “hey you’re hitting a sore spot” or even “not cool”.
This is really truly the best advice.
I am a straight male. But by definition I’m gender fluid. I have endured through my life no end of abuse for this, and it’s nothing close to what my trans partners in the past have experienced.
But in the end, it comes down to having a spine and being able to assert yourself.
Especially in trades, there is no end of ball-breaking and risque dialogue. If you are not able to defend yourself or say okay dude the joking has gone far enough, you are not going to have a happy life and you need to find something else to do to make money.
If we live in the online reality where “ideal” behavior is constantly advocated and expected, we are never going to connect to the truth of life which is that bullshit is everywhere and we have to learn to stand up to it and flow with it.
Probably wouldn’t be a bad idea to do something along the lines of stating upfront that “if anyone in the company does anything to offend you, please report it to the appropriate channels. You’ll have our full support. We’re here to get work done, not to make people feel bad”
You’re not likely going to say by accident something they haven’t heard before, or to offend them in a new and novel way, But establishing and occasionally reinforcing the fact that they don’t have to tolerate it, that putting up with abuse is not part of their job, and that they have the boss’s backing at the same level of the non-LGBTQ employees should they find themselves being abused or offended, would probably go a decent way in minimizing the risk of something actually bad happening.
“… and if I accidentally say or do something offensive, tell me and I’ll try to learn better.”
This whole thread is very good
please report it to the appropriate channels
Telling them that you personally will be there for them is really the only guarantee you can make without blindly relying on third parties to act with compassion. So telling them to come to you so that you can then together go through the rest of the process is imo the better idea. They can always choose to just ignore you, but making them go to some shitty HR office by themselves also sucks.
Yeah, I’d only encourage reporting if I knew 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person who would be taking the report is also an ally. And even then, I’d still hesitate to encourage it.
My workplace is… Interesting. I work in an arts department for an employer which doesn’t do a lot of art otherwise. Each department is managed by a specific person in HR. My department happens to be managed by a raging transphobe. We also happen to have the highest amount of trans people per capita than any other department… Because, ya know, art.
Our HR person requires that they use their deadname for all of their work stuff. Their work email uses the initials for their deadname. Their Windows username uses their deadname. Their RFID ID badge and name tag both use their deadname. Et cetera… She claims it is company policy to require official government names on everything.
Except it’s not. That policy doesn’t exist. It’s just something she makes up every time a trans person gets hired. There’s even someone in HR who uses a chosen name for all of their work stuff. They literally share an office. Our hiring manager has tried to go through or around this one specific transphobe multiple times, but gets bounced back to her every single time. Because apparently the “your department has a specific HR person” is a rule that is enforced throughout all of HR, but the deadname thing is only enforced by our specific HR person.
The hiring manager does what he can to insulate them from it, but there are certain things he can’t control. For instance, he orders them new custom name tags, so they don’t have to walk around with their deadname stuck to their shirt. But he can’t order new RFID ID badges, because those are printed by our IT department, and they use whatever name is in the system. He can’t change their windows username, or their work email address. To put things into perspective, our department is over 25% trans or nonbinary. That’s over 5x higher than any other department…
And what are those trans employees going to do? Go to HR to report it? As cops are fond of saying: “We have investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing.”
Re: what are trans employees supposed to do.
At one point the path was documenting disparate behavior and taking up the lawsuit path, but I’m pretty sure my employer could write transgender on the reason for termination line and the eeoc won’t touch it under this administration
You’re not likely going to say by accident something they haven’t heard before, or to offend them in a new and novel way
Not OP, but you underestimate my foot in mouth capacity.
20 years ago, my sister was dating a jock. Real body builder type. Probably a bigger musclehead than most pro-wrestlers.
What I was trying to convay is that we should make a superhero costume for him to wear, and make a comic book out of it.
What was percieved instead is that he should run around town and suck everybodys nuts in his mouth for their approval.
I DARE you to try to connect how that came out so wrongly worded.
You can’t just leave us hanging like that, how did you word it?
Well maybe only say this if it’s true
Im trans with over 10 years of experience in the industry
–
There’s really not a lot to it. We just want a basic level of respect and empathy. Respect their chosen names and pronouns, and don’t ask them random questions about being trans unless they’re open to it. Trust them when/if they talk about their experiences, they know more about themselves than you do. Reassure them that their job is a safe space.
Happy to answer any questions.
Edit: if you slip up on name/pronouns, simply apologize, correct yourself, and move on. We know people aren’t always trying to be malicious. Hell, my dad still slips up on my pronouns.
Im trans with over 10 years of experience in the industry
The… trans industry? How much does it pay?
Lol gonna get me a job forcefemming people
Please send pricelist.
:3
HEEHAW!
And in what currency?
Blahaj and programming socks (the yearly bonus is a Thinkpad)
You’re convincing me to switch careers/gender
I almost forget the free fem&ms (breast mints) :3
Unknown lip filler shots in the parking lot of a Church’s Chicken
Is one tradition IDK how today’s kids do it
Depends on who you ask
Just be yourself & be open. There’ll always be troublemakers on all sides
Good on ya for making an effort and being open to learning. I would buy you a beer if I could.
I’d be fine with you buying me a beer in their place.
Meet me at the bar this evening. If you show up, I’ll buy you a round.
Im omw 🫡
Well, one thing I know is: make sure you don’t out them. If a kid has transphobic parents, you really don’t want to accidentally inform them their kid is trans.
I mean I just stay out of peoples personal lives as a principal
Great start. It also goes for work. Even if they’re open about it, just don’t allow comment on it at all at work. People quite often say “so there’s a lad working on X team and he’s trans but you’d never know” or needlessly say “oh yeah Katie, she’s trans”. Shut that down RUTHLESSLY around you unless the trans person says not to
I dont understand people’s need to share shit like that.
It’s up there with (though obviously not as private and sensitive as) when people tell you a story about someone they interacted with and just have to make sure you know the skin colour of the person when it holds zero relevance to the story.
I know it’s ingrained into what people say. Maybe it’s the unusual things people feel they need to comment on? Idk though
I like this idea and will do my best to put it to work. Shut that shit down. Thank you.
Np thanks for looking out for trans people!
Honestly, just tell them to let you know, in private if they feel it necessary, if you make them uncomfortable. In general, jokes about people being trans/gendernonconforming are ok, as long as it’s not the one “joke” – identifying as an attack helicopter/dragon/ridiculous things. Pretty much just don’t make fun of them for being trans, but it’s fine finding humor about their transition, if it makes sense. It’s generally pretty easy to tell when someone has a problem with you being trans and is going to be a dick to you under the veil of humor, and when someone is joking around with you. Just make sure they know to let you know if you make them uncomfortable, and tey not to be a dick. The fact that you’re asking makes me think pretty much anything you’d consider saying is forgivable at worst.
Edit: I kinda fixated on the joke part, mostly because everything else is pretty simple. If you mess up pronouns or anything like that, don’t make a big deal out of it, just correct yourself and move on. They’re just another person
I want to live in the timeline where a super-scientist gets sick of the attack helicopter meme and makes “attack helicopter reassignment surgery” possible and available.
If one of my besties thought they could live their best life as a helicopter I would absolutely support them.
I can’t speak for trans people, but i would expect that the best course of action is to be yourself and dont mock anyone. You can rib and have a laugh, but dont open with a whole script of trans jokes. Get to k ow them, like you would with anyone and learn the boundaries naturally. If you think of them as different, you will be on edge the whole time and are more likely to mess up.
If you make any mistakes, just be sure to apologise, and i am sure any of them would understand. Ultimately, as far as i understand it, trans people just want to be accepted and allowed to be them selves and be a part of society. The only way that happens is if we dont treat them differently, whether thans positively or negatively.
If you wanna go the extra mile, skimming an ally guide for 10 minutes, looking up some terminology and concepts, would reduce awkwardness by a fair bit. I certainly would have avoided a half dozen missteps if I did some reading.
This is super helpful, thank you!
I’m trans. To me the most important thing about jokes in the workplace is when a cis person says something that I can twist into being a deadpan trans joke (of varying riskiness depending on the group). Either the cis person will softlock while trying to determine the ethics of laughing or they’ll go for it and potentially apologize. It’s always a win in my book though
