My opinion also, but in a slightly darker radical tone that I never share otherwise: bringing someone into this world of suffering is a misguided act of unconscious selfishness and whoever does so owes all available effort to reduce that suffering. In practice, no one is able to acquit themselves of this debt, which is why I hope I never have kids…
@NoSpotOfGround yeah simply put youre totally right. Sure, there’s good in this world (if youre rich) but lets face it, life is mostly bad and we would all rather be having an eternal slumber instead. We are just here making the most of it because we have to. Say this in public IRL and youll be utterly crucified though. To me its just logic. If you have a kid either by accident or choice, I dont care. But dont make me feel like its required.
That’s a very nihilistic view that implies existence is not worth anything. Personally, I believe that existing is actually beautiful and worth experiencing, even if it sucks sometimes and has inherit suffering. Otherwise we might as well all lie down, stop eating or drinking, and wait for death. Kids don’t see the world as suffering and pain — they enjoy every moment with unjaded, curious eyes.
I have no idea where you get the idea that having kids is selfish. I spend so much of my time, attention, money and love on them. We share their pain, success and all their ups and downs. My wife gave up her career as an architect to spend more time with them.
We take care of them now, and they will take care of us later. That’s not selfish, it’s human. And this might be news for you, but this world was always a rough place to be if you’re not born rich.
And if you’re hinting that your kid’s CO2 footprint and consumption potentially contribute to climate change, you’re also forfeiting their chance to contribute to positive changes.
I think it’s more that the act itself, of having the child, is a choice that is made without the consent of the life being brought into the world. Every child is forced into existence through decisions that are not their own.
Of course, it’s impossible to get consent from the violated party, but it’s still a decision parents take for their own reasons, not the child’s reasons.
Existing is more pleasurable than not existing, and you can always choose to stop existing if you want. On balance, it is better to be born than not to be.
But an overwhelming desire to protect your children from suffering will ultimately just lead to them suffering more.
Anyway, the word for that feeling you have is “anti-natalism”–that it is unethical to bring children into the world because non-existence is preferable to likely misery.
I agree with you. I often challenge people to give one selfless reason to have a child, just one… to this day, no one has been able to give one reason. When you look at it, having a child is a selfish action
God bless your heart if you are this naive 🦄🌈. In the real world pleasure is the exception, pain and death are a warranty in this world. I’m sure you can warranty you’r Kid will be 100% healthy, live a life free of trouble and pain 🫅🏻
@thepig in my experience these folks think everyone is either rich or has zero disabilities of any kind when thats actually about .00000001% of humans. Or theyre really young and have no idea how much life sucks (but make the best of it anyway if youre here)
True. I am not religious or even spiritual, but I gotta admit that the budists got it right when they say “suffering is a fundamental constant in life”. Thinking everything will be sunshine and rainbows is not optimism, it’s just being naive.
In all honesty, lots of people have children not even because they especially want to, but because they feel obligated to by their role in society. That’s not a reason many people are likely to give, but it’s not a selfish reason.
It is selfish, you have a kid because you don’t want to handle other people’s opinions about you, giving in to the pressure is easier that standing your ground, more comfortable to. So because you don’t want to argue with your parents and deal with the backlash, you decide to bring another human being into existence. That’s pretty selfish
Indeed, I do not want to shame people who decide to have a bunch of kids if they truly want to, but they should really think about their choices and the consequences, because at the end of the day, those people that pressured you into having a kid will not help you if things go wrong, I’m talking about mental and physical illness, I am talking about financial destitution, I’m talking about accidents, and 1001 other things that can happen
There are plenty of reasons that aren’t selfish. You can do it for humanity, for justice, for style points, for Narnia… If you want to logick those into being selfish, that’s your own moral framework talking. Every action is a subjective choice from a subjective perspective in the end, but people can still have non-selfish intentions, however misguided you may judge them.
For humanity? We are over 8 billion people in this world, you think humanity needs another one to share resources ? Let me guess your’s will be special of course, better than all the rest. For justice ? I don’t even understand your logic here. It’s not subjective it’s just selfish, you are not having a kid for the good of others, you having one because you want one, consequences be damn
I think you’re missing the point. Having a child for Narnia is not selfish, it is literally for the good of Narnia to have another strong Narnian. But you’re operating under a moral framework where even the good of Narnia is ultimately good for the Narnian, therefore it is selfish to want Narnia to be strong.
Do you have to agree with the idea of a strong Narnia? Of course not. But it’s a very narrow way of thinking to explain every human motivation through selfishness.
They care about an ethereal being that has not yet even started to exist ? Cause before they conceive the child, the child doesn’t exist, so surely they must not care about something that doesn’t exist. They care about THEMSELVES and their desire to have a kid, or did they ask the future kid’s soul if it want to come into existence?
My wife and I have a family to give you a justification to not have children. So, I’m glad I could make you feel better about your choice. That was pretty selfless of us I think.
Might not be selfless as such, and I’m not in any position to speak for women in general, but when that biological drive kicks in, it can do so pretty damn hard.
That’s still satisfying your own need, but perhaps more subconsciously so than people having children without thought or care.
Me and my wife agreed on not having children when we were young, but we’ve never regretted the son we got after a pretty radical twist in our mid 20’s. I could go on, but it’s complicated.
In today’s world, if I were young again, I’d never even give it serious thought, though. Different times, although it doesn’t feel that long ago.
My intention is not to shame or make people who have children feel bad. I am 35 and I would never have a kid, we are over 8 billion people in this world that’s over the maximum sustainable capacity, why on earth would I bring another human into this world, there is nothing inherent special about my DNA that I MUST pass down.
My opinion also, but in a slightly darker radical tone that I never share otherwise: bringing someone into this world of suffering is a misguided act of unconscious selfishness and whoever does so owes all available effort to reduce that suffering. In practice, no one is able to acquit themselves of this debt, which is why I hope I never have kids…
@NoSpotOfGround yeah simply put youre totally right. Sure, there’s good in this world (if youre rich) but lets face it, life is mostly bad and we would all rather be having an eternal slumber instead. We are just here making the most of it because we have to. Say this in public IRL and youll be utterly crucified though. To me its just logic. If you have a kid either by accident or choice, I dont care. But dont make me feel like its required.
That’s a very nihilistic view that implies existence is not worth anything. Personally, I believe that existing is actually beautiful and worth experiencing, even if it sucks sometimes and has inherit suffering. Otherwise we might as well all lie down, stop eating or drinking, and wait for death. Kids don’t see the world as suffering and pain — they enjoy every moment with unjaded, curious eyes.
Well, you know, ideally
Nah, this is fake news. I hated being a kid and was passively suicidal. Once I was an adult, I got to trans My gender and be happy.
I have no idea where you get the idea that having kids is selfish. I spend so much of my time, attention, money and love on them. We share their pain, success and all their ups and downs. My wife gave up her career as an architect to spend more time with them.
We take care of them now, and they will take care of us later. That’s not selfish, it’s human. And this might be news for you, but this world was always a rough place to be if you’re not born rich.
And if you’re hinting that your kid’s CO2 footprint and consumption potentially contribute to climate change, you’re also forfeiting their chance to contribute to positive changes.
I think it’s more that the act itself, of having the child, is a choice that is made without the consent of the life being brought into the world. Every child is forced into existence through decisions that are not their own.
Of course, it’s impossible to get consent from the violated party, but it’s still a decision parents take for their own reasons, not the child’s reasons.
If you truly believe what you say, don’t just hope you don’t have kids. Either get fixed or don’t have sex.
And I already put my money where my mouth is, I got fixed to ensure I will never get pregnant.
Existing is more pleasurable than not existing, and you can always choose to stop existing if you want. On balance, it is better to be born than not to be.
The more selfish you are, the harder it is to be a good parent.
That being said, not everyone should have children, and: “I was a perfect parent too before I had kids.”
But an overwhelming desire to protect your children from suffering will ultimately just lead to them suffering more.
Anyway, the word for that feeling you have is “anti-natalism”–that it is unethical to bring children into the world because non-existence is preferable to likely misery.
I agree with you. I often challenge people to give one selfless reason to have a child, just one… to this day, no one has been able to give one reason. When you look at it, having a child is a selfish action
To give someone a chance to experience the pleasure of living.
To contribute to the world an additional person of quality and integrity.
You probably just haven’t been asking very thoughtful or articulate people.
God bless your heart if you are this naive 🦄🌈. In the real world pleasure is the exception, pain and death are a warranty in this world. I’m sure you can warranty you’r Kid will be 100% healthy, live a life free of trouble and pain 🫅🏻
@thepig in my experience these folks think everyone is either rich or has zero disabilities of any kind when thats actually about .00000001% of humans. Or theyre really young and have no idea how much life sucks (but make the best of it anyway if youre here)
Yall got some dismal life experiences; what a dour outlook on life.
True. I am not religious or even spiritual, but I gotta admit that the budists got it right when they say “suffering is a fundamental constant in life”. Thinking everything will be sunshine and rainbows is not optimism, it’s just being naive.
In all honesty, lots of people have children not even because they especially want to, but because they feel obligated to by their role in society. That’s not a reason many people are likely to give, but it’s not a selfish reason.
It is selfish, you have a kid because you don’t want to handle other people’s opinions about you, giving in to the pressure is easier that standing your ground, more comfortable to. So because you don’t want to argue with your parents and deal with the backlash, you decide to bring another human being into existence. That’s pretty selfish
@thepig oh man, sooooo many people fit this mold. “Because I have to. Because its what you do”. No. Its not. You dont have to do ANYTHING.
Indeed, I do not want to shame people who decide to have a bunch of kids if they truly want to, but they should really think about their choices and the consequences, because at the end of the day, those people that pressured you into having a kid will not help you if things go wrong, I’m talking about mental and physical illness, I am talking about financial destitution, I’m talking about accidents, and 1001 other things that can happen
There are plenty of reasons that aren’t selfish. You can do it for humanity, for justice, for style points, for Narnia… If you want to logick those into being selfish, that’s your own moral framework talking. Every action is a subjective choice from a subjective perspective in the end, but people can still have non-selfish intentions, however misguided you may judge them.
For humanity? We are over 8 billion people in this world, you think humanity needs another one to share resources ? Let me guess your’s will be special of course, better than all the rest. For justice ? I don’t even understand your logic here. It’s not subjective it’s just selfish, you are not having a kid for the good of others, you having one because you want one, consequences be damn
I think you’re missing the point. Having a child for Narnia is not selfish, it is literally for the good of Narnia to have another strong Narnian. But you’re operating under a moral framework where even the good of Narnia is ultimately good for the Narnian, therefore it is selfish to want Narnia to be strong.
Do you have to agree with the idea of a strong Narnia? Of course not. But it’s a very narrow way of thinking to explain every human motivation through selfishness.
Well said.
Are all selfish actions bad?
I don’t care, I just want people to be honest about it and stop pretending they do it because they care
Perhaps they do it because they care. How would you know what rationale everyone has?
They care about an ethereal being that has not yet even started to exist ? Cause before they conceive the child, the child doesn’t exist, so surely they must not care about something that doesn’t exist. They care about THEMSELVES and their desire to have a kid, or did they ask the future kid’s soul if it want to come into existence?
My wife and I have a family to give you a justification to not have children. So, I’m glad I could make you feel better about your choice. That was pretty selfless of us I think.
Don’t flatter yourself, the 1.44 billion people in India and 1.41 billion in China, plus our dwindling world resources did that
Might not be selfless as such, and I’m not in any position to speak for women in general, but when that biological drive kicks in, it can do so pretty damn hard.
That’s still satisfying your own need, but perhaps more subconsciously so than people having children without thought or care.
Me and my wife agreed on not having children when we were young, but we’ve never regretted the son we got after a pretty radical twist in our mid 20’s. I could go on, but it’s complicated.
In today’s world, if I were young again, I’d never even give it serious thought, though. Different times, although it doesn’t feel that long ago.
My intention is not to shame or make people who have children feel bad. I am 35 and I would never have a kid, we are over 8 billion people in this world that’s over the maximum sustainable capacity, why on earth would I bring another human into this world, there is nothing inherent special about my DNA that I MUST pass down.