This might be a bit too personal but whatever…
Context is that my last job wasn’t exactly great, and it just happened to be when US science was having issues, so I left for a position in EU. Only joined for less than 2 months so still new. Problem is now that I’ve settled in a bit, issues at the new workplace have been surfacing… I know academia/academic research is known for having “difficult personalities” but this is beginning to get comical. Edit: in both cases it is the supervisor that is toxic; I have nothing against my coworkers. In this case it’s referring to what appears to be lots of micromanagement and favoritism, probably some denying of holiday leave that may or may not be legal by the country’s employment laws
On one hand I don’t want to deal with a bad workplace again just to avoid the toll on my own health (which did happen a lot during the past year). But on the other hand it is nice to have an EU-based position (especially since I’m not an EU citizen so my job is also linked to my ability to stay in a country), and if I got into this situation two-times in a row what’s guaranteeing that it won’t happen again
I’m… open to all suggestions
I guess your job market as a scientist is even worse than for IT engineers right now. So I would keep looking for a new job while keeping my head down at the current one until I can safely secure a new one. There’s also a possibility that your problems at 2 months will get better after 6 months once you get to know all your colleagues better and make some allies.
Thanks. One of my colleague did suggest that, I suppose I’ll start being selfish & start applying now. The problem itself will only get worse unless my entire institution unionizes or something similar… but it’s unlikely that I will get fired (my skills are very in demand) so there’s that; I am also trying to get independent funding which would mitigate the problem a lot
I helped my last company not fully unionize but come together to demand change. I got the support of several teams backing me to confront management on their return to office policy. Management changed their minds quick.
It’s not easy and was basically a second job for a few months for me, but you could always try to start the unionization effort.
Nice! I was on the unionization effort with my last employer too; I’d make a terrible leader but I have the skills for helping out. I am trying to get to know my coworkers better, so that is definitely not off the table
Did anyone else read the title and then get surprised that the author is not who they thought it would be?
You have my sympathies, OP.
… Thanks, is there an in joke that I didn’t quite get somewhere??
One of the other question oriented boards have recurring questions about work place drama and changing positions. It has gotten to the point where I can see the title and know who the poster is. Not mentioning names, but your post is different enough to know you’re not them.
I… learned something new today about Lemmy I guess
No that’s definitely not me, my workplaces may have asshole bosses but actually all have surprisingly little drama all things considered (and I hope I don’t jinx it)
I think I ended up blocking that person just to avoid all the repetitious topics, and I was still surprised
Yuuuuuup. Still wondering, tbh.
avoid the toll on my own health
Make this a goal. Independent from other (work) goal.
Respond differently when people start getting toxic. Do sometimes not respond at all, but turn around and walk away.
Read about “resilience”.
OP you are now a grey rock until you can get out. Good luck, if you have great worker protections as an EU worker, even better, just do your job, keep your head down. You can choose how you respond mentally and how it affects you. Don’t try to control what you can’t control. Take up mindfulness and meditation and a side of therapy if you need to while you work on getting a better job in the EU.
Every job is going to have workplace drama. I’m also in sciences, I spent 2 years on a masters thesis, 8 years in a research pathology core lab and now I’m about to switch over to medical lab work which has all the same core issues. Most people are nice and supportive but from time to time you run into arrogant personalities that refuse to listen and learn or ask for impossible requests in a very short amount of time. Management is under constant pressure to crank out high quality work with limited resources, salaries are low resulting in poor staff retention, brain drain and turnover so over time the work becomes more and more difficult for the incoming new hires as the scope of the job slowly creeps. What really helped me was to embrace and accept the chaos. Its just a job like any other. Go to work, you do you, go home. Just one good friend at work makes a huge difference, be flexible and help each other out. These are hard jobs so do everything you can to make everyone’s lives easier. Also don’t back down from conflict, speak up for yourselves and others. I’ve had bosses that advocate for my interests and bosses that don’t, you really need to speak up for yourself because no one else will. Sorry for the rant but I hope this helps. You remind me of a new hire trying to find their foothold in the sciences and I’ve found this advice useful in the past. Things just happen, go with the flow and try to emotionally detach yourself from it, things just happen for no reason sometimes and its out of your hands.
Thanks, that helps a lot… I definitely had an issue with just detaching from my work emotionally for the last job, hence why I literally got sick despite the job being really, really favorable on paper. I will try to do this more for the current job for now; the job is also quite favorable on paper after all. I did mention in another comment that it is unlikely I will get fired, so if I really want to stay I will try to adapt these concepts to the best of my abilities. Thanks!
Any time! best of luck!
that may or may not be legal by the country’s employment laws
What’s your union situation? Can you join a local trade union for your profession, or does it require some more permanent citizenship-thing there? Maybe it’s unhelpful for this specific problem, but join one if you can. If there’s any issues with holidays, payment, etc., they’re the ones that can help you out - they know the laws. That’s invaluable especially when you aren’t exactly sure how the local stuff works
Currently none; the country is known for having a very high union participation rate, but I don’t know what’s the situation is for researchers specifically… As in, I don’t even know if there ks a union for PhD students/postdocs. I’m convinced to do something about this though, we’ll see. Thanks!
(Comedy answer)
Seems like you have a tendency to get terrible jobs. Try the George Costanza method: whatever your instincts tell you to do, do the opposite! You’ll be working at the New York Yankees in no time.
It depends on why it’s toxic. You say it’s the people but that can still vary a lot. If it’s because the other people are constantly attacking and belittling you then I’d (personally) just put my head down, do my work, and keep a hunt for a new job on the side.
If however they’re “difficult” because they’re set in their ways and don’t like change and aren’t good at expressing their point of view and you find yourself clashing on what to do and how. It’s different. I’ve found I can adapt to those kinds of people and we eventually find a rhythm that works for both of us.
I’ll also add I’ve had jobs with five different companies with people from many countries, and I’ve yet to find a job where at least some of the people aren’t toxic. I’ve sometimes had success requesting moves to teams/projects away from the most toxic people. But unfortunately “knuckle down and put up with crappy people” is what’s worked the best. But only you can know for yourself if you can do that in your current situation.
I’d also be looking for an EU sugar mama as much as possible on the side.
It’s the supervisor. I’d say it may be more close to the second one than the first: bossman was trained in German academia and it shows; they are from what I’ve gathered a micromanaging person with really bad management skills that also has pretty blatant favoritism, also heard from coworkers that bossman disallowed vacations previously. Not the worst thing in the world but does appear to be pretty nasty; if I don’t want to get fired there are ways I can adapt. My coworkers are honestly quite nice atm. I suppose I will try to do both then, apply for other things while use my… currently strong arsenal tool of dealing with ppl to get through things for now
I’d also be looking for an EU sugar mama as much as possible on the side
I eh will get on Hinge again and visit Luxembourg in the future 💀
If you are in Germany, it just might be a cultural thing, I say so myself as I’m not from Germany and had to adjust as well. But I do have friends in academia and I know how crazy it gets. If you are getting personal attacks, document them and save them somewhere safe. Evidence is very valuable if you
and if I got into this situation two-times in a row what’s guaranteeing that it won’t happen again
Absolutely nothing.
The way I like to put it, is that most people are nice, but there are assholes everywhere.
It’s not that everyone is a douche, just that there is nowhere you can go, where there won’t already be some, or where they won’t suddenly show up later.
As such, it’s good to try and learn to deal with them, avoid them, or outlast them.
At my last job, my two first bosses were great, then the third was a nightmare. But he got fired two years in and then the fourth was good again. That job lasted me seven years. 5 out of 7 is not bad.
Overlay that with all your colleagues, and yeah, you’re almost bound to have at least some of them be bad… It’s a numbers game. If most of your colleagues are reasonable, then you’re probably in one of the better places to be.
This may be unhelpful, because it’s based on limited data and specific scenarios, but my experience working in academia is that clear explicit communication helps a lot, and suspending judgement until a relationship and trust is established helps too - and that can take a really long time. Try to take a step back and not get emotionally involved with things, but keep the receipts and escalate if things do truly get out of hand. Having someone you can talk to and trust to be critical of your method of handling the situation can helps with perspective.
Some academics are just assholes. Seems most are on the autism spectrum, and that makes it hard to interact with. Aside from neurodivergence, it’s not hard for a perceived slight to get blown out of proportion for a variety of reasons.
As you’re noting you’re going to have to grin and bear it for a while until you can get the residency sorted out. Doing excellent work that’s in demand can definitely help with establishing relationships, but obviously that depends on the situation.
Frankly it helps… your experience tracks with mine as well. I did hear from one colleague that they adopted the Dutch explicit/super-direct communication style and I think it worked for them, so I will give it a shot too. My coworkers are nice so thankfully I believe I will have some ppl to talk to, I’ll make sure to do that
Seems most are on the autism spectrum, and that makes it hard to interact with
Funny you mentioned that… I’m Autistic and somehow the worst boss I’ve had so far was extremely ASD-coded, while the best one I’ve had was not on the spectrum but super understanding. And yes there are lots of assholes in academia
In response to your edit - micromanaging is standard. It’s super awesome when the PI is telling you how to run a procedure they haven’t run themselves or haven’t done in 10 years. /s
One thing I forgot to mention is that you’ve got people with zero industry experience and zero managerial training walking into their supervisory role on the merit of their educational and research background. They just don’t know (and have the Dunning Kreuger effect in spades) that they’re being managerial jerks. ASD or not. Huge “manage your manager” challenge in academia.
And with ASD, we get into a habit of trying to communicate with neurotypicals and in America especially it’s expected to sugarcoat and kowtow in every communication with the manager but that’s not always a great thing to do with ASD people as you’re aware. Clarity without confrontation is the fine line that you’ll need to walk.
if I got into this situation two-times in a row, what’s guaranteeing that it won’t happen again
If it happens again then you might have to start looking within to find who is making every workplace you go to “toxic”.
I did unironically tell my old mentor that I’d quit academia if my next job doesn’t work out, so there’s that… I have seriously introspected for the last position and didn’t resort to blaming my boss until like 6-8 months in and I’m pretty sure I wasn’t at fault. But rest assured I do introspect a lot. Maybe too much sometimes but that’s a separate discussion…
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Weirdly confrontational.
But I guess indeed.com says it’s a stress free profession, so that must mean that people cannot complain about being stressed if they have that position. Ever.
Can’t argue with that 🙄
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