Honestly deradicalizing and demilitarizing Israel WOULD deradicalize Palestine.
Israel put Hamas in power. Israel literally helped Iran deliver funding and weapons to Hamas for decades.
I think you hit the nail on the head exactly. That’s it, the whole affair in one line.
I think Israel is carrying out a genocide and even so my question is: Why not both? Whose responsibility is it, and why uniquely on Israel/Palestine?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tIdCsMufIY
I’m not naive enough to think this is possible, I’d just be happy if world powers and neighboring countries at least stopped feeding the conflict. Oh, look at me, and I just said I wasn’t into naive hopes.
Sure, one side has 95% of the world’s wealth behind it and the support of the strongest military in history, but yeah both sides are equally responsible and have equal impact on whether the genocide continues…
The most certain way to deradicalize the Palestinians is simply to deradicalize and demilitarize the Israeli state and to dismantle its apartheid and occupation edifice.
Religion is social cancer
So here’s a comment which will probably be downvoted to hell, but I can deal with that.
I’m almost 50 years old. Israel and Palestine (plus other surrounding countries) have never been at peace as long as I can think.
There’s always some asshole who thinks fighting a war is the better option. If an Israeli prime minister wants to make peace, they fucking shoot him. If a Palestinian leader becomes too moderate, Hamas will do their own thing.
In the meantime, there are at least some people on both sides who wish for nothing more than peace. Yes, we can debate on which side has more of them and it’s damn certain there aren’t enough of them by far.
But can we maybe just stop taking a side? This conflict is not about Israel or Palestine having to be deradicalized, OP, it’s about the all the warmongers and religious fundamentalists and radicals on both sides who need to be deradicalized.
There will never be an end to this as long as I live if we continue to blame either Israel or the Palestinians. Both is wrong, both of them haven’t done nearly enough to stop this insanity.
(But yeah, I totally agree, the current right wing Israeli government is a hopeless case if you want peace.)
This war is about land and imperialist control over the middle east, not religion.
Hamas is not Palestine and Palestine is not Hamas.
The victims of genocide, apartheid, occupation do not have the same level of culpability as the perpetrators. And it’s not the current right wing government that’s to blame, sorry. It is the whole edifice that the Israelis have built of occupation, apartheid, and now genocide.
You want a moderate palestinian leader? He exists. His name is Marwan Barghouti. And it’s not Hamas that has “done their own thing”. He’s in an Israeli jail, with that worm Ben Gvir torturing him.
And if 50 years seems like a long time to you, and that they should just grow up and accept the fait accompli of the occupation and the defeat, well sorry but that says more about you. I know nothing about you but I wouldn’t be surprised if you come from a cultural background that doesn’t have a history of resistance and struggle for freedom. My Greek ancestors were occupied for 400 years. The Irish for 800. Warmongering? Wars for freedom are just wars. Peace is not the absence of war, it is the presence of justice. No justice? No peace. As simple as that.
So yea, I’m going to take a side.
Hear hear, well said, as a 52 year old, (albeit I’m Lebanese and had my fair share of Israeli wars), it’s been obvious from day 1 Israel has long been practicing blatant apartheid policies in the Gaza strip, and providing IOF support to terrorist settler pogroms in the west bank. The vile entity that is the Israeli government today needs to be torn down and rebuilt to allow for a viable Palestinian state.
I too am taking a side and fuck Israel and the IOF.
Edit: Formatting
No justice? No peace. As simple as that.
And here’s another thought on this: It seems as if quite a lot of arab people (not only the Palestinians) view the mere existence of Israel as an injustice.
Logical conclusion? Obvious…
The existence of Israel in the way it exists now is an injustice.
I know nothing about you but I wouldn’t be surprised if you come from a cultural background that doesn’t have a history of resistance and struggle for freedom.
Is this some kind of attempt to dispute my right to an opinion? Or an attempt to devalue it? I know nothing about you, but come on. I’m sure you can find better arguments for your positions than thinly veiled ad hominems.
No, it is an attempt (maybe ham fisted, in which case I apologize) to make you reflect on whether you have the cultural middleware to really understand that 50 years of occupation is not “forever”, that longer timelines have existed. It’s a call to examine your assumptions.
It’s a call to examine your assumptions.
Nope, it translated to me to “you don’t come from a background of resistance in your country, your opinions automatically don’t matter as much.”
“maybe ham fisted, in which case I apologize”
So now that the misunderstanding is cleared, I call you again to examine your assumptions and blind spots.
Hamas is not Palestine and Palestine is not Hamas.
I acknowledged that when I said “If a Palestinian leader becomes too moderate, Hamas will do their own thing.”.
The victims of genocide, apartheid, occupation do not have the same level of culpability as the perpetrators.
No, they don’t. There are many blameless Palestinians. And there are Israelis who voted for the current government, they surely carry more guilt in this war than Palestinian victims.
that they should just grow up and accept the fait accompli of the occupation and the defeat, well sorry but that says more about you
Firstly, I never said they have to accept it. If you think war is the only means of not accepting and trying to change it, it says a lot about you. Secondly, someone else in this comment section said: “what will lead to an enduring peace is actually more important than what is just.”
No justice? No peace. As simple as that.
This is why this will never end.
I acknowledged that when I said “If a Palestinian leader becomes too moderate, Hamas will do their own thing.”.
Like I told you, it’s Israel that “mows the grass” to make sure no moderate gets ahead. Bargouti is in an Israeli jail.
“what will lead to an enduring peace is actually more important than what is just.”
But that’s the point: if it is not just, it will not be enduring. I don’t understand what is confusing about “no justice no peace”. Justice by the way does not mean that Palestinians get everything. It means that they get enough to feel that they have gotten a deal they can live with. Ireland is a fantastic example here actually. The Irish didn’t get a united Ireland in the early 20th century, but they got an independent country. And in the next chapter of struggle, the republicans and the unionists again didn’t get everything, but they got enough to get to a place they can live with. But Britain had to fucking let go in both cases. The Israelis have to fucking let go and they have to come to terms with what they’ve done and realize that they will have to pay some kind of reparation at the very least.
But that’s the point: if it is not just, it will not be enduring. I don’t understand what is confusing about “no justice no peace”.
Nothing about it is confusing, it is very clear. And it is an absolute position that will make this conflict go on forever. Why? Because in an asymmetric conflict like this, there will always be injustice.
You have to find a way to end this injustice with peaceful means. I refuse to accept that only violence can solve this. That’s all I am saying.
What absolute position? I wrote a whole paragraph after the bit that you quote exactly on why it is not an absolute position.
Justice by the way does not mean that Palestinians get everything. It means that they get enough to feel that they have gotten a deal they can live with. Ireland is a fantastic example here actually. The Irish didn’t get a united Ireland in the early 20th century, but they got an independent country. And in the next chapter of struggle, the republicans and the unionists again didn’t get everything, but they got enough to get to a place they can live with. But Britain had to fucking let go in both cases. The Israelis have to fucking let go and they have to come to terms with what they’ve done and realize that they will have to pay some kind of reparation at the very least.
What absolute position? I wrote a whole paragraph after the bit that you quote exactly on why it is not an absolute position.
Okay, I admit I didn’t pay enough attention to what you wrote. Probably because I don’t like being lectured about history.
But in that case, even better! They tried working on a two-state solution. It was shot down, but you gotta try again. And again. And again.
Everything Israel and the Palestinians are doing at the moment is the exact opposite. They create more violence, hatred, death, destruction and desire for vengeance, which in turn will be the fuel for more decades of war.
Stop both sides-ing for goodness sake! There are no two equal sides here. There are the perpetrators and the victims of a genocide, of apartheid, and of occupation.
Not to mention that you are literally factually wrong. Hamas controls Gaza but the PA controls the West Bank. There is nothing the PA does that “creates violence, hatred, destruction and desire for vengeance” among Israelis. So to be extremely clear YOUR FRAMING IS FACTUALLY WRONG. The PA has recognized Israel, supports the two state solution. The PA is so actively trying to supress radicals that if you look around this thread you will see people accusing it of being collaborationists. And what do they get in response? Colonization, occupation, apartheid, and pogroms. If Israel achieves its war goals and eliminates Hamas from Gaza, the result will be that that insufferable misery also extended there. The Palestinians are literally given a choice of genocide or apartheid, of a quick fiery death or a slow bleeding death. This is Israel’s policy and it isn’t just Bibi, it is the Israeli state policy of the last 30 fucking years.
But can we maybe just stop taking a side? This conflict is not about Israel or Palestine having to be deradicalized, OP, it’s about the all the warmongers and religious fundamentalists and radicals on both sides who need to be deradicalized.
Partially incorrect, since the vast majority of Israelis clearly support the actions of their current government and army. Now, this could be due to mass propaganda inside Israel. Quite possible, but the numbers are still way too high. The level of support is higher than it was in Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia, where as we now know, propaganda was constant and ubiquitous.
Moreover, it’s one of very few countries on the planet that have never had a significant peaceful period in their history. Pretty much since its establishment in 1948, Israel has been slaughtering people. Admittedly, not all of it is their fault. I don’t blame them for getting invaded literal hours after declaring independence. However, Europe has experienced this in the past as well, and yet, it managed to forge peace lasting longer than its conflicts.
This, and more, points me to a suggestion that Israel does in fact need to be deradicalized. How we’d go about it, if confirmed to be the case, is an entirely different matter.
Partially incorrect, since the vast majority of Israelis clearly support the actions of their current government and army.
I actually agree with this and nothing I said is in contradiction with this fact. There are still some Israelis, albeit far too few, who want peace.
Israel? The nation that “secretly” detonated a nuclear bomb without any repercussions after the ban?
Israel? The nation that has a plan to nuke as many people as possible if their “promised land” is threatened?
No, not that Israel. There’s no way.
“82% of Israelis want to expel Palestinians from Gaza; 47% want to kill every man, woman, child in Gaza”
https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2025/05/30/poll-israelis-expel-palestinians-gaza-genocide/
It would be very interesting to see how Palestinians would respond to the same questions.
All of the land occupied by Israel is stolen from Palestinians, they would be justified in wanting them out and their homes back. But if you ask them they generally say they don’t necessarily want to evict anyone, most of the average people there just want to live and have sovereignty.
Would you say that a jewish Israeli whose ancestors lived there in 1800 had stolen the land from Palestinians? What if they immigrated there in 1880 and built a hut in the desert? Not to make light of the situation but I hope you understand there’s more nuance than the trope “jews arrived there on a boat in '46 and claimed the land”. The idea that we should merge all the different nations that emerged back into a resurrected Ottoman Empire to make everyone who was wronged whole again is just unworkable.
It would be very interesting to see how Jews would respond to the same questions about Nazis
Same question from you.
See, sometimes there is this thing called “both sides can be wrong” but in this case the power imbalance combined with 5 decades of Israel terrorizing Palestinians makes it that you can just safely say that Israel is the guilty party here, period, end of discussion
This issue isn’t new. 4 decades ago as a child I read about abuses from Israel against Palestinians. 4 decades ago I remember someone making national headlines because she dated to hang a Palestine flag from her house. She was immediately labelled an anti-Semite, whereas all she wanted was some basic support for suffering Palestinians.
Don’t even start about Hamas. Hamas is at least in part funded by Israel to be a terrorist group so that Netanyahu had an excuse to continue to terrorize Palestinians.
You can’t take all that and then say “weeeeellll, but Palestinians have done bad things too, you know!”
I’m sure they did, I’m sure they have. I’m also sure it’s irrelevant as it’s literally pennies to the dollars that Israel is doing and has been doing since it’s founding
I’m at the point where I wonder if the Israeli as a state should continue to exist. It’s toxic, it’s at the source of almost every conflict in the middle east since WWII. It continuously attacks everyone around them. It sends in tanks and military to kill children who dared to throw stones. Then you keep seeing these polls where the majority of Jews in Israel have, shall we say euphemistically, rather dark opinions. I keep seeing videos of entire neighborhoods rallying being extremely racist against anyone who is not Jewish. I keep seeing videos of these
settlersinvaders who just steal Palestinian homes and lands. You see targetted campaigns against anyone world wide who even dares to speak up against this toxic behavior. This shit has been going on like this for decades now.It really really makes me wonder if that state there is such a good idea in the first place.
And I’m sure I’ll be labeled anti semite for expressing these opinions but that word has lost all its meaning. It used to be something really bad because in WWII Jews were massacred. But what are we supposed to do, say, or think when now, today, 80 something years later, it’s Israel doing the massacring?
Questions like yours are so extremely disingenuous…
It would be very interesting to see how Jews would respond to the same questions about Nazis
I dunno. There’s a lot you can say about the jews, but I don’t really think they were trying to create a zionist state inside Germany in the 1930’s…
that Israel is the guilty party here, period, end of discussion
Ever since the 1920’s both zionists and muslim arab-nationalists have been duking it out over the spoils of the Ottoman Empire to carve out their own country.
There were a lot of states created from the Ottoman Empire. Most of those borders were carved along ethnic and religious lines and spoiler alert: they weren’t decided through peace and friendship.
It’s interesting to see how people would compare Israel’s guilt to that of, say, Turkey. The latter put a genocide on 1,5 million Armenians to carve out their territory. There’s a bit of irony to be found when people argue that Israel shouldn’t exist because there’s conflict. Had they followed the Turks’ example back in '48, the memory of their sins would have started fading into history the very next day.
It’s interesting to see how people would compare Israel’s guilt to that of, say, Turkey. The latter put a genocide on 1,5 million Armenians to carve out their territory.
And if you have paid attention, there are quite few voices there as well to officially recognize it as a genocide. It’s also rather important to add the bit where this happened before the word genocide existed. Lastly, if we go back far enough in history we’ll find dozens of examples that would have been genocides but again, we didn’t really have that concept setup until after WWII. From the Wikipedia article on genocide
The 1946 judgement against Arthur Greiser issued by a Polish court was the first legal verdict that mentioned the term, using Lemkin’s original definition.
Also I made the argument that Israel perhaps shouldn’t exist because it has been an agressor from pretty much day one and it has continued this to the point where there is a clear pattern of aggression. Though the Turks, to continue your example, suppress the Kurds, I haven’t seen turkey attack nearly all of its neighbors, and they have definitely not committed genocide in the past 50 years
Israel, on the other side, has been in countless wars with countless countries. It executed (understandable but still) extrajudicial executions, it has subjugated Palestinians to the worst atrocities seen since WWII for over 5 decades now. Hell, they’ve been funding terrorists (Hamas) just so they could continue murdering innocent Palestinian with a flimsy excuse. They regularly let “settlers” (nice euphemism there) steal Palestinian houses and land, and if Palestinians resisted even the slightest bit, they’d be murdered without repercussions. For decades.
I’d argue that there is a clear structural pattern of aggression and violence from this state, hence the question: should this state continue to exist? Because if it does so in its current form, I guarantee you that the middle east will never find peace.
Then, Palestinians aren’t trying to create a state within Israel. They had their lands, were driven off of it, Hardee’s in small areas which are the places they’d like to have their independent state with Israel being a neighbor.
And yeah, the way that the middle east was carved up was asking for trouble, because of course it was. That, however, doesn’t excuse anything that Israel is doing today nor anything of what it has been doing for decades.
and they have definitely not committed genocide in the past 50 years
Well that’s my point, innit?
You don’t hold that against Turkey as much, even though they murdered more than ten times as many innocent people because, well, “it’s been a while now”.
If Israel had just murdered all of the muslim Palestinian population in '48, you’d say they were better than Turkey.
Why would Palestinians want Palestinians expelled from Gaza?
Your answer gives me a chuckle because I was wondering if I had to type it ‘toddler-proof’ to prevent people making a funny instead of an answer ;-)
I had to. Was compelled to. The world being what it is, I gotta make levity where I can.
Almost certainly similar in spirit, regardless of what their Western fans like to project.
It’s a pretty symmetrical situation, even if they have different skin colours. If only we could treat it that way (edit: and then the capability gap wouldn’t be there either).
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Why would you say they deserved it? Do you think Israelis would ‘deserve it’?
The Israeli state at least, like the German Nazi state during WW2, does deserve to be destroyed. Palestinians have had a life of continual murder from advanced weaponry at the hands of Israelis, but even they still generally don’t want to kill every Israeli person.
Nazi Germany was only defeated through putting a genocide on the German people, forcing their leadership to give up and surrender. Do you think the Germans who were genocided ‘deserved it’?
Mass killings of civilians were committed against Germany and Japan, and those attacks are widely seen as war crimes, most reasonable people don’t argue that the average German or Japanese worker going about their day deserved getting firebombed. There were mass atrocities but they weren’t defeated by genocide, they were defeated by a military campaign that took out any capacity they had to wage war.
Sure they were. Had the German military chosen to continue the fight through guerilla warfare à la Hamas, the Allies would have continued their genocide of Germany à la Israel. It’s the German military high command that chose to surrender instead of continuing the fight.
There actually was a German resistance movement against the Allied occupation forces. Little known about but they killed about 5.000 occupation troops. The Allies and the US in particular carried out the death penalty for anyone being caught attacking their occupation troops.
Not super relevant though
looks at post title
You can already see the hallmark signs of a state funded media campaign to undermine any and all claims that the ceasefire has been broken and continues to be so.
They’re using the fact that people are tired of seeing and reading about horrible things knowing they have no control over it. As a result, the public are now personally invested (mental wellbeing) into the ceasefire being real. Even if the bombing campaign and conditions are nearly identical to pre-“ceasefire” levels, the general public is exhausted and takes the (still propagandized) media’s coverage as truth.
Hypernormalisation keeps coming to mind.
They are not wrong that Israel is radicalised. However, peace is a process, and what will lead to an enduring peace is actually more important than what is just.
If Israel was actually willing to reconcile and treat Palestinians as equals, the South African model of truth & reconciliation (including amnesty for abuses in exchange for full disclosure of what happened), it wouldn’t be just for the victims, but it would allow both sides to move on peacefully.
The real problem is that Netanyahu, Smoltrich, Ben Gvir etc… don’t actually want peace, so even a neutral truth & reconciliation is currently unlikely to happen without their backers (especially the US) forcing them.
I thought it was hugely funny that after two years of bombing to erase hamas, hamas still stands up armed as if they were never sffected
You spelled dissolved wrong.
Porque no los dos
benjamin needs to be prosecuted like he shouldve been, before he got the PM position again.
I mean, it’s really both. Hamas is batshit crazy, they’re just far less militarily powerful.
There are no good guys in the Israel Palestine fight.
also you must be deradicalized, and everyone else on lemmy
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Hamas has power because they are resisting an apartheid state. I’m sorry but I absolutely hate this take. You can criticize a state when it gains sovereignty and is enacting unjust laws against its citizens. But when the only resistance to an apartheid state is a right wing faction that right wing faction is still correct for resistance.
Do you think the solution to the unjust Jim Crow laws of the segregation in the US South would be for Canada to start carpet bombing Atlanta? A people can not make progress within their state structures while under the thumb of oppression and apartheid.
The time to criticize the Palestinian state is after there is a sovereign Palestinian state. Hamas on paper might have right wing ideas. But Hamas as a force fighting an apartheid state against the genocide of its people is absolutely fully justified. And that’s who makes up “Hamas”.
The Palestinian people don’t have the luxury of deciding which ideology is fighting to resist their extermination. And not until they have self determination as a people can they begin to actually progress in their civil rights.
Not to mention that few Palestinians currently alive ever voted for Hamas. The average Palestinian is 20 years old, 63% of their population is under 29. The last election was in 2006, meaning 63% of the current population would be 10 or younger when those elections happened.
The group resisting genocide is popular? /shocked
Did you just “bOth SiDeS” a genocide?
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“82% of Israelis want to expel Palestinians from Gaza; 47% want to kill every man, woman, child in Gaza”
https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2025/05/30/poll-israelis-expel-palestinians-gaza-genocide/
I doubt you’d have the same number from Palestinians because they are not indoctrinated from birth to dehumanise, like the Israelis are. There’s a reason corporate media in the West never interview “normal” israelis
I think you seriously underestimate the Palestinians and what they think of their neighbours
Okay, I’ll bite. Let’s say that Palestinians also need to be deradicalized. Surely the first step should be to stop the ongoing genocide and apartheid?
Sure best thing today (for me) would seem to stop fighting, re-establish pre '67 borders and go from there.
I don’t know what you understand under ‘end apartheid’ (it’s been thrown around rather cheaply lately) but if you mean a one-state-solution where everybody stops thinking along religious lines: I don’t really think that’s realistic in the short term
I’m also not sure what I mean by “end apartheid”, because I also don’t know whether it’s realistic in the short term. That would still be the most realistic path to deradicalising Palestine.
A reasonable first step towards that long term goal would be to end the ongoing genocide. It’s hard to even speculate about possible futures when each day of needless bloodshed makes future peace more difficult.
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There are no good guys in the Israel Palestine fight.
Of course there aren’t. Especially not the (checks notes) starving civilians, children, the elderly, the disabled and the people wanting to live a normal life. They’re ceratainly not “in the fight”. They’re not right beside it, either. They’re magical beings made up by Khamas to make the world hate Israel.
Both sides are the same. That’s why one should genocide the other. It is the natural order of the world, after all.
Come on, dude/dudette. It’s not about sides. It’s about people. But there’s one thing about sides I do know: there’s one side of history you’re on. And it’s exactly the wrong one.
If one stops trying to subjugate the other, the other should hopefully slowly start to be calm down about the subjugation.
Years and years of people stealing land, burning houses, shooting unarmed protesters and prosecuting people unfairly only leads to more hatred, more conflict, and more war.
If there was any chance of a free and fair election in Palestine that could elect something else it would be good, but only would end up different if it came without Israel’s interference and them actually staying out of Palestine. Governments like Israel and the U.S. or U.K. trying to put anyone on the ground there is more likely to cause conflicts. Where as if the UN countries all agreed to cut all trade with Israel if they didn’t stop trying to instigate shit… Israel would likely listen, or dissolve over time if they didn’t. The only people who should be on the ground there is investigate journalists and AID from around the world to help those people rebuild and leave whatever can be left behind them behind them
Honest question:
Why are the US and other countries, backing Israel so hard? I’ve heard they have an amazing spy system, and it seems to be only politicians that back Israel unconditionally. Is it blackmail, keeping our fuck ups as status quo, or maybe “Hamas is evil no matter what?”
No, it’s cultural affinity (polite way of saying racism) and economic interests (polite way of saying colonialism).
Same reason why the entire western world was fully supportive of South Africa during Apartheid
It’s also propaganda, AIPAC has been pushing the idea of Israel devotion for decades in the US. I’d imagine there’s similar lobbying groups (in less obvious forms) in other countries as well.
Falls under cultural affinity.
It also takes other forms, that are not always very explicitly racist. In Greece for example, a country with a traditionally anti-imperialist people (Papandreou and Arafat were really besties), Israel has become a strategic ally to contain against Turkish aggression. Even Tsipras was cordial with Bibi. Take away Erdogan’s sabre rattling and Greece would probably revert back to sanity.
I would say influencing others has less to do with racism and more to do with power mongering. People with power influencing others to get the outcome they want. Plenty of Democratic representatives who aren’t otherwise racist are impacted by them.
Where i live (argentina), Israel’s agenda is pushed in almost every news outlet, especially from the right. Some journalists even wear Israeli pins and have Israeli flags on their desks. And, for real, we couldn’t care less about the near east (dont get me wrong, but i think you will agree that we have our own set of domestic problems). For what I see and what I hear that happens in other parts of the west, I feel that “cultural affinity” isn’t the only card on their hand.
Well said. I probably would have taken 5 paragraphs to explain it so well. Imperialist interest align.
So, when you say racism, do you mean because of their religions, Palestinians being mostly Muslim and Israel being Jewish? Don’t they look the same?
Talk to the Irish and Polish about 19th century racism.
Limiting racism to skin color is a more modern interpretation.
I would say two types of racism
- Orientalism. Not necessarily Islamophobia because it’s the same kind of racism against Arab Christians. It’s the same brand of racism as the one treating the Balkans as barbaric. It’s cultural racism, rather than skin-tone based.
- Antisemitism. Implicitly, if all the Jews go “over there” they aren’t “here”. Even the Nazis originally planned to deport the Jews and only got to slaughtering when deportation was no longer practical. Nowadays the biggest antisemites are usually pro-israel, from Breivik to CUFI.
That area is so confusing to me. I learned about it in ancient times in college, but the cultural things like this are so wild. I wasn’t exposed to anything about it besides ancient history. Thanks for explaining a lot of. It seems that oil+racism=so many hate crimes
Honestly don’t know for certain, but Israel pays a lot of money into lobbying in the U.S.
On a side note I would say Israel is the U.S. guaranteed entry point to that region of the world, so when it comes to intimidating other countries having a foothold somewhere there is of value to the U.S. (vehicle efficiency has increased, and car ownership dropped from 138 million registered in 2021 to 97 million registered in 2023.). So 30% loss in cars., and population increased from ~285m to ~337m during that time. (Irrelevant, but for scale that’s 127% of Canadas population total)
So the U.S. has stockpiled military equipment in Israel for decadees that is well defended do to shared technologies. This allows for unilateral support if say Bush 1 or Bush 2 wants to manipulate the area for something pertaining to oil prices getting to low/high. Contrary to many, I believe the U.S. ensures oil barrels stay higher in price because the lifting cost in the U.S. is higher. A good example is our oil production has increased by more than double from 2001 till today.
If the cost of oil in Iran/Saudia Arabia go lower that profitability drops, and some of the largest contributors to the Republican party (oil companies in the west, would see huge drops in income).
Other countries of interest there. Argentina, Columbia, and Venezuela. Should also mention Brazil, but they have grown closer ties with China who they export most of their excess Oil production too. Harder to impact at the moment, so they likely want to keep them out of direct conflicts.
Remember Trump sat down in May 2024 asking oil executives directly for $1 billion dollars in campaign contributions to help him get elected with the promise to squash any programs he could pertaining to EV growth.
Aipac is funded by american zionists not israel
I strongly believe some countries feel the need to support Israel through their worst decisions simply because they (Israel) have nukes. It would most likely be preferable to have a friendly nuclear power rather than an unfriendly rogue one, even if they’re frequently uncooperative.
even if they’re frequently uncooperative.
and apparently doing genocide.
Oil and natural gas. Also using it as a proxy serving imperialism interests against the other side of impwrial countries (China and Russia)
Hamas accept the two state solution. Israel doesn’t
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I also support the one state solution but many Palestinians still believe in a two state solution and Palestinian will have the right to pick which one they really want
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That would be nice, but its basically impossible at this point. Neither side would accept the other being a part of their governance. The only way to get to one state now is, well, to do what everyone is accusing Israel of doing right now.
Hamas doesn’t accept the two state solution. They are open to maybe discussing potentially reaching a consensus about the 1967 borders.
If you want to underscore Israeli unreasonableness, you’ve got to point to the PA/Fatah. The PA/Fatah has accepted the two state solution and has stopped violent resistance against Israel. They are in every way an interlocutor for peace. And in return they are being constantly undermined and ratfucked by Israel. Their territory is being annexed, its authority ridiculed, ita legitimacy destroyed.
So PA has respected the term of the Oslo accords and Israel didn’t and start building more settlements, arming and protecting the settlers yet PA still accept to work for Israel security while west banker get terrorized and attacked by them . Thank you for proving my point that PA are collaborators and Israel do not want peace regardless if Hamas is destroyed or not
Israel actually dismantled settlements after Oslo. Hamas opposed the Accords and carried out several deadly bomb attacks against Israeli civilians in the runup to the next election. This put Netanyahu in power who ran on an agenda of opposing Oslo as well. Their refusal to a two state solution, and futile hope to defeat Israel through violence and terrorism, squandered every chance for a peaceful solution.
Israel under Rabin seemed intent to stick to the accords, but a far-right ultrazionist terror attack in Hebron and the subsequent assassination of Rabin by a right-wing Israeli extremist undermined it significantly as well.
Of course the mosque attack had the same aim, and needs to be condemned just the same. But despite them, Arafat and the PA decided to continue the path towards peace. Hamas saw them even more as traitors and collaborators because of it (and, I’d like to point out, several posters in this thread still seem to believe this).
Despite it being a shocking event, the assassination of Rabin did not make Israel leave the path. His successor vowed to continue and even had a 30-point lead in the polls at one point.
Without the Hamas’ bombing campaign Netanyahu would have been left shouting from a corner instead of being handed the power to reverse Oslo.
Israel actually dismantled settlements after Oslo
then quickly built new one. Even if it was Palestinian that did not respect it. Building more settlements is illegal under international law
Hamas opposed the Accords and carried out several deadly bomb attacks against Israeli civilians in the runup to the next election
Hamas was not part of the Oslo accords . Netanyahu himself say that he was the one who sabotaged it not Hamas
Hamas opposed the Accords and carried out several deadly bomb attacks against Israeli civilians in the runup to the next election Hamas was not part of the Oslo accords . Netanyahu himself say that he was the one who sabotaged it not Hamas
Before we continue: do you believe Netanyahu was part of the Oslo Accords?
What a dumb question
The Oslo Accords are a pair of interim agreements between Israel and the PLO. Israel can’t escape from it’s obligation just because the prime minister changed. Hamas was never a member of the PLO
They are open to maybe discussing potentially reaching a consensus about the 1967 borders.
You’re exaggerating, but also sure, why do they need to go any further? Compromising beforehand is never a good idea, see: PA. Speaking of which, PA isn’t a tragic victim; they’re an active collaborator. The only thing they do is keep Palestinians under an oppressive dictatorship and fight what little Palestinian resistance exists in the West Bank. That’s why they have no legitimacy; their current program is one of submission, not “peace.”
They literally didn’t. Source?
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240118-meshaal-hamas-rejects-two-state-solution/
The 2017 charter of Hamas say that it accept it , it is the last updated version. Khalil al-Hayya has more practical power within Hamas than Mashaal and he said that Hamas would drop arms after having a Palestinian state is made so without arms how are they supposed to destroy Israel
https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2025/10/who-hamas-chief-negotiator-khalil-al-hayya
at the same time this document strove for the “complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea”,[7] and did not explicitly recognize Israel.
Hmm
Hamas sabotaged the Oslo Accords by blowing up civilians exactly because they opposed a two state solution. (Succesfully, because this then helped Netanyahu seize power)
Hamas was not part of the Oslo Accords so no Hamas did not sabotaged it . Oslo Accords is still respected by the PLO while Israel continue to steal Palestinians land, arm and protects the settler terrorists. I don’t know why you keep using the same excuse Israel do
Secular Palestinian Political Organisations existed, Bibi supported Hamas specifically to weaken the secular flanks, because it’s way easier to justify a genocide against Hamas
thats what i read too, and he mostly advocated funding to hamas too.
The secular Fatah ended up being the one collaborating with Israel
Fatah made a deal with Israel and it stuck to it. Fatah didn’t “collaborate”, it tried to achieve peace and a Palestinian state. It is the only player in the conflict that plays within the parameters set out by the UN.
Fatah is a truly tragic organization in this whole drama. Before you accuse Fatah of anything, you must first condemn Israel and the international community for betraying the shit out of them.
Israel didn’t respect the Oslo accords so PA shouldn’t keep respecting it either.
I condemn Israel first, the Arab traitors and western countries Israel supporters seconds and the occupation collaborators the PA last.
Easy to pontificate to the Palestinians what they should or shouldn’t do.
Support for Palestinian factions: support for Hamas declines by 4-points while support for Fatah remains unchanged. The decline in support for Hamas came from the West Bank. Support for Fatah is higher in the Gaza Strip than in the West Bank and support for Hamas is also higher in the Gaza Strip than in the West Bank. In both areas, support for Hamas is higher than the support for Fatah.
Support for Palestinian factions: support for Hamas declines by 4-points while support for Fatah remains unchanged. The decline in support for Hamas came from the West Bank. Support for Fatah is higher in the Gaza Strip than in the West Bank and support for Hamas is also higher in the Gaza Strip than in the West Bank. In both areas, support for Hamas is higher than the support for Fatah.
Support for Palestinian leaders: If presidential elections were held between three candidates, Marwan Barghouti of Fatah, Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah, and Khalid Mishal of Hamas, Barghouti would receive 50% of the vote, followed by Khalid Mishal and Abbas.
The release of Marwan Barghouti is supported by Hamas but not by the Palestinian Authority
Demand for the resignation of president Abbas: About 1 in 5 Palestinians are satisfied with the performance of **President Abbas **and 81% want him to resign.
When asked whether it supports or opposes the disarmament of Hamas in the Gaza Strip in order to stop the war on the Gaza Strip, an overwhelming majority (85% in the West Bank and 64% in the Gaza Strip) said it is opposed to that; only 18% support it.
Marwan Barghouti is a member of Fatah.
The JCPA that you cite is a conservative Israeli think tank…
Edit: You changed the citation.
Sure Abbas doesn’t want him out, but Fatah is not Abbas and Abbas is not Fatah. Fatah is a mass organization.
And where exactly do you place Hamas with their bombing campaign that led to Netanyahu, who wanted to end Olso, being elected to replace Peres, who wanted to enact it?
Israel want the whole land since it’s creation so stop blaming everything on Hamas . Hamas reply to occupation brutality that’s all and occupier force always committed more crimes against any act of resistance . The plo respected the term, Israel didn’t because they do not want peace. If you accept Israel excuses you are not better than any Zionist
After the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine - Ben Gurion
Partition might be only a temporary arrangement for the next twenty to twenty-five years - Chaim Weizmann
There will be no Palestinian state—this land is ours - Netenyahu on September 11, 2025
You seem to struggle with the concept that Israel (and Palestine) consists of more than one person or faction and that there are factions that want peace and factions that want war. Hamas made sure the Israeli faction that wanted peace lost power in '96
Mb, I should’ve mentioned “covertly” supporting Hamas.
The Qatari money was used for infrastructure projects. Israel as the occupying force it the one who allow money to go even to the west bank of the PA yet weirdly the rhetoric is only used to against Hamas . Hamas rely of smuggling for it’s military wing and arms.
How can you convince anybody that Hamas works for Israel against the “good” Palestinian authority who is collaborating for Israeli security while not protecting a single Palestinian from the settlers?
Hamas is crazy as Crazy Horse was “crazy”. You know what both have/had in common? They are/were fighting displacement of their friends and family due to colonizing powers. The only difference is the latter’s people suffered almost complete annihilation while the former is a work on progress. If the British didn’t insist on making Palestine their reservation for Jews, then Palestinian freedom fighters wouldn’t have had to fight Zionists violently encroaching upon their native land.
Fatah. Marwan Barghouti. Palestinian civil society calling for BDS.
Just because Israel wants the Hamas scarecrow as its opponent doesn’t mean the rest of Palestinian society is irrelevant.
Hamas is batshit crazy, they’re just far less militarily powerful.
What? Hamas’s position of “give us a Palestinian state and we’ll give them our weapons” is very reasonable. Their lack of respect for civilian lives is one thing, but “batshit crazy” ain’t it. Why do you think they’re batshit crazy?
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Really? No good guys? How about the protestors and activists? Or or or how about the MAJORITY OF PALESTINIANS STILL LEFT ALIVE WHO ARE LITERAL CHILDREN?
Yeah I’m sure OP meant that the children are bad guys. What a hot take. Get real
The point is that Hamas is made out to be much more than it actually is in that country. These deaths are not just Hamas and Israeli deaths, like lots of Americans seem to think they are.
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Depends on if you consider the civilians stuck in the middle of the conflict to be “in the fight”. They’re certainly casualties of it.
its the aliens that are making the illuminati cause wars who are at fault.
It’s both let’s be real
