For reference, I have already told them why the sky has no stars (it’s because of camera exposure, the moon surface is very reflective so lower exposure is used to not overexpose the image) and why the flag wasn’t drooping down (there was an extending arm in the stand to hold it upright, as a flag drooping down is a sad flag). I have also explained that the videos of the moon landing were upscaled/remastered when they asked why the video quality of the clips were so good.
Currently, their main argument is the fact that the U.S. were able to do the moon landing in the mid 20th century while are experiencing delays for the current moon mission. They argue that, if the moon landing could be done way back then, with modern technology, it should be possible to quickly get back to the moon. They also argue NASA could have just reused the same designs as the Apollo missions if they actually went to the moon.
I have argued that NASA’s budget is a fraction of what is used to be, and that the addition of new modern technologies introduces additional parts that could break and thus need to be tested. I have also mentioned that the Soviet Union would immediately call out the US if they faked the moon landing, and that samples of moon rocks were sent to Soviet scientists to study and verify. They insist that the Soviets were scared of what the US would do if they spoke out against a fake moon landing, which I didn’t agree with (given they were both nuclear superpowers)
They then argued that it’s impossible to tell whether the moon rocks are actually from the moon landing, they could be samples collected by rovers. I responded that no rovers had successfully collected moon rocks at the time, and then they switched to arguing that it’s impossible to verify the rocks are from the moon. I followed up by saying there are methods of doing that (through the composition of the rocks and such). They then asked how anybody knows what moon rocks look like if nobody else has been to the moon, and I got kind of stumped. I tried to explain that there are models to how the moon formed, how we know the rocks aren’t from Earth, satellites that map out the surface, etc., but they reiterated that no one can “prove” that they were from the moon without going there in the first place.
One interesting thing they also mentioned is that, if the US really did do a moon landing, why the Soviets (during cold war era) or Chinese (in modern era) didn’t do what they do best and copied their designs to land on the moon. Given that the US and China are having a new space race with the goal of being the first to establish a lunar base, they argue that China could just copy the Apollo program designs if the US really did do a moon landing.
To summarise, their main points/questions right now are: a) Explain why the US hasn’t gone back in so long, and why with modern technology it seems so difficult? (especially given that NASA has been experiencing numerous delays in the Artemis missions, that certainly hasn’t given them a good impression…) b) How do you verify moon rocks without having actually been on the moon? How did scientists figure out what a moon rock looks like? c) Why aren’t the old Apollo designs being reused for a moon landing? (by either the Americans or the Chinese)
They say that there isn’t strong evidence either side (but believes that it is false, saying that “we will see” once someone else lands on the moon)
And what other points can I bring up to definitively say, yes, the moon landing wasn’t faked?
edit:
Another thing, they also can’t believe that astronauts could bring and ride the little moon buggies. I am also partially interested in how that was achieved to be honest!
2 Things:
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They left a mirror at at least some of the landing sites, and we can bounce a laser off that mirror back to Earth. Proof that we were there.
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They have sent probes up to circle the moon, and those probes photographed the sites. You can see lunar landers, abandoned gear, footprints, and the tracks from lunar rovers.
- You probably need special equpment to conduct the laser test. Noone cares to get access to that or trusts the institutions that do. Anyway, the laser is fake, it gets redirected somewhere else.
- All phographs are faked anyway.
Their logic.
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Literally not worth arguing with a person that believes this. These kinds of beliefs aren’t rooted in logic or reality so you’re not going to change their mind.
Check out professor Dave on YouTube, he just made 2 long videos on the topic
Ya’ll believe in the moon?
a) Explain why the US hasn’t gone back in so long,
Why would they? Nothing of value came from any of those missions and the risk is enormous.
and why with modern technology it seems so difficult? (especially given that NASA has been experiencing numerous delays in the Artemis missions, that certainly hasn’t given them a good impression…)
Because transistors are a lot more sensitive to EM than valves. Our current technology miniaturized lots of things, but that also means that a single piece of conductive material (like moon dust) or a single electron (from an em pulse) in the wrong place can wreak havok to it. Old computers required lots more electrons and space for their actual function so they were a lot more resistent to random variations. And we can’t make old computers anymore because we don’t have the factories for them, and you’re not going to create an entire factory just to produce a couple pieces for one mission, so they have to focus on isolating and making things more resistent.
b) How do you verify moon rocks without having actually been on the moon? How did scientists figure out what a moon rock looks like?
The moon is constantly being bombarded by unfiltered radiation because of its lack of atmosphere. This makes it so they’re composed of minerals that rarely occur on earth (they usually bind with oxygen or nitrogen in the atmosphere), have different isotopes (because of the radiation) and are much older (because no interference from tectonic movement/rain/wind/etc)
c) Why aren’t the old Apollo designs being reused for a moon landing? (by either the Americans or the Chinese)
Because they can’t for the same reason the US can’t, they don’t work with modern electronics, and no one can produce old electronics.
They say that there isn’t strong evidence either side (but believes that it is false, saying that “we will see” once someone else lands on the moon)
There is very strong evidence, your friend can corroborate for himself by spending a few thousand dollars (or he can understand that if anyone wanted to they could). First you need to buy a very powerful laser, then a very sensitive sensor, you hook them so they very close together and fire at the moon, you will never get a reading back, because the moon surface is a difuse reflector with a rough surface the light will scatter and go everywhere. However, when the astronauts went to the moon they left retroreflectors in specific locations, so if you pointed at one of those you would get the signal back approximately 2.5 second later.
And what other points can I bring up to definitively say, yes, the moon landing wasn’t faked?
I guess it’s easier to ask them “what evidence would convince you” because the answer will be none, of there was any evidence that would convince them they would have been convinced already.
Another thing, they also can’t believe that astronauts could bring and ride the little moon buggies. I am also partially interested in how that was achieved to be honest!
Not sure what’s there to not understand about this, so I’ll just say same way cars get to a dealership and you ride them afterwards.
you dont have ti provide anything, the weight of the proof is with the non believer :)
but okay lets go:
beyond all the obvious evidence:
the biggest evidence is around how difficult it would have been to stage it. how many people need to be bribed for eternal silence - this includes suppliers, ex workers, employees, crews, etc…why hasnt anyone admitted the lie in their deathbed?
what I am saying is that it is more difficult to stage this (successfully) than actually do the freakin thing.
No technical rational explanation will ever get to them.
Most are there because they want to belong to a community, and because they like the idea of being right where everyone else is wrong, so that they’re the important ones for once.
That’s how you get to them: feed their need to belong, and their need to find enough self-esteem some other way.
The reason we can’t build the same thing as before is because the tooling is all gone, the set up of tools used to make those parts no longer exists. Half of designing a large complex thing is setting up all the machinery to actually produce what you want, testing and checking and dialing everything in, verifying that what you’re getting out is with in tolerances and will fit together properly. Building test segments and measuring how the behave and then going back and readjusting all the tools to account for differences and altering the design to match what you can actually make. Also all the people who knew the ins and outs of the old designs and manufacturing processes to make them are retired (and probably have forgotten some stuff) or dead. Recreating those production lines, manufacturing methods, retesting and dialing it all in, it would be expensive and time consuming, more so than just building something new based on modern manufacturing techniques and using already produced parts.
And we have been doing that… but it’s not getting nearly the same level of funding the Apollo program had, nor the same level of political commitment. Between 1963 and 1971, nasa’s budget was on average double what it is today (accounting for inflation) and they were allowed to focus most of that on a single project for that whole 8 year period. Compare that to today where nasa has hundreds of different projects ( ISS, near earth science satellites, mars rovers, probes to asteroids and outer planets, Artemis) and their goals and plans get whiplashed about every 4 years each time the administration changes. Not to mention Boeing routinely running over budget and over time and forcing nasa to foot the bill for their fuck ups. Blue origin and space X are also behind schedule on their lander projects as well.
So why were we able to do it back then and can’t now? NASA got the funding they needed, got to focus most of it on a single project and got to make a long term plan and stick with it, and private companies were much less willing to screw them over for a quick buck.
Ask what proof would change their mind and show them. Then when their mind is not changed, you will understand
This is it.
There’s a movement post-BLM where it’s not their job to explain racism to the ignorant. Very often, ignorant people refuse evidence. They waste everyone’s time and energy.
You cannot argue with stupid, dont bother.
This’d be my answer. A friend (former at this point) of mine fell down a conspiracist rabbit hole, and at one point started insisting the moon landings were faked. Now, I happen to know a lot (or more than most, anyhow) about the Apollo program, and absolutely nothing I could say helped. Either they pivoted to some new bullshit argument they’d heard on some YouTube video, or just dismissed things as lies when convenient.
You can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.
I lost a good friend a similar way. He insisted there was a global conspiracy to suppress “free energy” (over unity generators), among other things.
My background allowed me to personally prove some of his arguments wrong from almost first principles. He then accused me of personally being part of the conspiracy. At that point I concluded he was a lost cause and parted ways.
Most of his “evidence” was in YouTube videos. I went through a couple. It mostly had the build-up, explanation, consequences, and conclusions. It missed any actual evidence. It’s amazing how someone can fill 2 hours with nothing of substance.
At least my friend didn’t accuse me of personally being in on any conspiracy, but every time I saw them it turned into them trying to “gotcha” me with their latest conspiracy. Eventually they went off the deep end into flat Earther bullshit and at that point I just gave up and we lost touch because I haven’t had any interest in hanging out.
It perplexed me quite a lot. I think it was the only way he could mentally maintain his worldview.
Dealing with that mindset is exhausting. I try and keep an open mind. Unfortunately it’s possible to have it so open your brain falls out.
“Exhausting” is exactly how I would describe it.
But yeah, I try to keep an open mind too, and I didn’t mind (har har) my former friend’s previous witchcraft woo woo at all because it was harmless, but once they (and their partner, gah) started getting into conspiracy stuff they got weirdly belligerent about it, and it just got worse and worse the deeper they went. The last time I saw both of them, I was grilled for 2h about basic fucking geometry (turns out flat Earthers don’t understand perspective at all) and after that I just decided that I’ve had enough
Even better, one up them. “You think the Moon is real?!?”
You believe in the concept of a moon?
I like my moons like I like my plans: in concept form only.
The flat earth people often say it’s a hologram
The flat earth people
Use GPS navigation to drive around.
To add to that: You can’t reason someone out of an argument they didn’t reason themselves into.
Aren’t there reflectors in very specific places on the moon that will respond to high powered lights shown at them?
There are indeed. I think at least 1 mission laid out 3 reflectors in a triangle so the distance to the moon could be calculated?
Gotta put this guy in a room with my high school astronomy teacher. He DESPISED moon landing conspiracy theorists. I still remember when he showed us a documentary about them and kept yelling at every person in it for believing this stuff.
The moon landing was faked, but they hired Stanley Kubrick to direct the shoot, and he insisted that they film on location.
Yay, it’s catching on, I don’t have to type it every time.
Velco them to a stiff board, tilt it so their head is reclined, cover their face with a rag, and pour Tang onto them until they acquiesce.
There is a mirror left on the moon you can shoot a laser at and have it bounced back to you, no other celestial object can do that. Its also foundational knowledge for gps.
Their answer to that is “the mirror was placed by robots. We had the tech to get robots there, but not living people.”
I’ve had to deal with these people before.
The answer my friend gave to that was “well have you tried this yourself? No? Well why do you believe there actually is a mirror there? It’s just another NASA lie”
The response to that is to tell them, ‘I thought you did your own resesech but now you balk at the idea of doing a resarch project to verify a claim, you don’t want to do your own research, you want to believe lies.’
And if they say they dont have the capability to do that experiment, then retort they most certainly don’t have the capability to do any of their own research.
And you think that’ll convince them?
Either that or it will make them mad so its a win-win
Yep, the laser array is the definitive answer.
One would think, but like I just said in another comment, my conspiracist ex-friend’s reply was “well have you tried this yourself? No? Well why do you believe there actually is a mirror there? It’s just another NASA lie”
You can do tours at Long Range Laser places. There’s two in the US and one on France. Take your idiot friend to one.
Oh they’ve since fallen even deeper into the conspiracy rabbit hole and they hit the flat Earth at the bottom, at which point I stopped wanting to spend time with them since listening to them really fucking tedious.
Frankly I’m not entirely sure they even believe in the Moon anymore at this point, considering how flat Earthers usually evolve
Wait, what is the moon to flat earthers, if not the moon?
Many of them legitimately think it’s a hologram, because reasons.
I’ve been vaguely aware of the conspiracy theory before but I looked into it yesterday for a bit, and apparently some moron filmed an atmospheric refraction phenomenon and concluded that the Moon is a hologram: https://sopuli.xyz/post/42150922/22267576
