TIL that “loitering” does not mean leaving garbage in public spaces. Ive heard the term but never expected it to mean standing around idle, this is so stupid.
EDIT: nvm i was thinking about “littering”. english is hard.
You are thinking of littering. Loitering is standing around idle on another person’s property. It’s usually used now adays to move vagrants along but the law has jim crow origins.
Oh wow, you just blew my mind. I am in fact thinking about littering! I was a bit suspicious about me not realizing the true meaning sooner, but did not look into it further. This makes a lot more sense now, thank you for clearing this up. :)
It’s a common mistake since the words are very close, it does not help that many people who loiter also usually litter.
It’s a common mistake for non native English speakers. I thought the same for years but now know the difference.
It’s baffling to me that you can get fined by just standing somewhere doing nothing…
Loitering is illegal in the US because public spaces are free. Why are you just sitting in a public space for free when you could be sitting in a cafe or restaurant and contributing to the economy? Oh you don’t have that money? Well then you’re worthless to society and just shouldn’t exist, obviously.
What ?
Few places nowadays is it legal to lay around & do whatever you want outdoors, usually getting cited for loitering or something.
What kind of shitty place are you living in?
The US is a shithole
I once went to a park sat on a bench and right in front of me was a no loitering sign. It’s a park, what else am I going to do?
Most of those “no loitering” signs only exist to give the police a legal crowbar against homeless people. Realistically if you’re just sitting and minding your business nobody will actually come along and eject you.
sitting while black has entered the chat
Gonna jinx it eh
I once went to a park sat on a bench and right in front of me was a no loitering sign. It’s a park, what else am I going to do?
That is hilarious (well, sad actually, but you get what I mean). Also kind of reminds of that one politician once saying that “breast are not suitable for small children” in the public breastfeeding debate …
The US . if youre not white good luck even walking around. Youll get called in. And I’m not even in the deep south.
I always find it funny to figure out that stuffblike loitering isn’t something the Simpson invented. It’s something americans are not allowed to. But freedom is very important to them
But they have guns! Muh freedumb!
Loitering laws are mostly just racism.
It’s rich people not wanting “riff raff” hanging around. No one cares if you’re hanging around slums and ghettos.
That’s where you’re wrong. Police love loitering laws there too. Easy excuse to harass people and search them
In the UK all farmland is fenced off, with occasional walking paths available. I used to think the Ridgeway was great because there was about 50 miles of trails one could walk on or ride a bike, and in summer motorbikes and 4x4s were allowed too.
It blew my mind when I moved to Spain and I worked out I could get pretty much anywhere off road whenever I felt like it.
For novelty I once rode my little motorbike from my house to the supermarket, with only about 50m on paved roads. It was very liberating. But unfortunately some of the yoghurt I bought got squashed by the jostling on the way home, and my bag smelled of bad milk for a couple months even after I’d washed it :-/
It’s not perfect, but there are cleaners with enzymes that really fight dairy spill smell. They’re primarily marketed here as pet odor destroyers. A spilled spring latte came back to haunt my car carpet in the summer despite my best cleaning efforts initially. I sprayed with the enzymatic cleaner and cut it in half within a few days. I sprayed again a week later and got rid of most of it. If it sits for a few days in the heat, I could smell it upon entering, but it easily got evacuated with open windows for a minute. Like 4 years later it’s still there very faintly, but now it has to sit for like a week in the summer and it’s only identifiable because I know what it is.
In Scotland under the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 you can walk, camp, and explore most land in Scotland—even if it’s private—as long as you’re respectful, don’t cause damage, and give people (especially homes and farms) their space.
This is also true in New Hampshire in the US.
Nice!
Yeah, bit then the midges get you
Seriously though, Scotland is mostly ahead of the rest of the UK in many ways. I had some of my best times in Scotland :-)
Necause you misspelled ‘but’ I then had to read your comment with a Scottish accent.
Aye, it’s a sexy accent alright
(I don’t have a Scottish accent, lol)
If I am not laying on private property or in the entrance of a shop or something I can lay around whereever I want. I don’t really understand what OP is talking about.
In some areas, almost everything is private property. Including sidewalks, parks, beaches…
I was in a city that only had one green area that was publicly accessible. The was signs that you weren’t allowed to be on the grass, only the paths. So you could pretty much only walk through. Even just standing, you’d be in the way.
I get that the property owner sets the rules, but if everything is private, it gets hard to exist.
And that’s why I’m placing you under arrest.
In some places the nice beaches have been privatised by local hotels or clubs so you gotta pay them to sit on the beach or go sit somewhere less nice. Coming from Western Australia where we have the nicest beaches in the world (all free), I take this concept of “owning beach space” as a personal affront.
looking at you greece ಠ_ಠ
but seriously… it’s hard to eek out an existence in sydney… everything is so fucking expensive.
but peddle to the beach and read a book, it’s free and the best thing in town.
They don’t even have to be privatized. Some municipalities in the US require a “beach tag”. I lived on a barrier island growing up, and we had to buy ours every year, or go to the beach two towns over where it was free (…except where it was privatized).
Not in California
In Canada, a very old arrangement dating from the creation of the country, says that navigable water is a federal matter. Whether it’s on the side of the ocean, a big lake, or a river, the water and anything below high tide is Crown “land”, and public. There are obviously exceptions and access by land can be controlled but not by water. At least not the beach itself.
It leads to weird situations, like a provincial park that can’t stop boaters from using remote parts of “their” beach. Or another where boats band together between some islands, and party and jetboat among kayaks and SUP.
But this also prevents owners of big houses around lakes to claim a part of that lake, or the foreshore.
We don’t have the right to roam in general here, with some exceptions for Crown lands, and it happens that bodies of water and rivers is Crown land.
Anyway, that’s how I understand this.
More of this country is crownlands than privately owned lands. Except for the National or Provincial Parks you can roam free without registration. There is no cell signal when you head out there, you need a sat phone or one way emergency beacon.
Yeah but my biggest issue is that I live in the south of Quebec without a car, and most land here except water is private. If i want access to Crown land and wild camp, I have to cycle for a few solid hours up north. Like, at least 100 km.
AFAIK even with a car, it’s like this for most of my province. The vast majority of the population lives concentrated around the archipelago and they have to drive a few hours north to get away from private land. Plus, it’s not easy to be certain what is Crown land or not.
Blm land? National forest? Can lay around for 14 days straight.
The land billionaires are salivating to carve up, log and develop? That land?
EDIT: I realized that this comment seems a little to pessimistic and doomer. I didn’t mean it to sound like we should just roll over and accept that these beautiful areas are taken from us and others. We absolutely need to fight back, and you’d be surprised, that even most conservatives (save for the ultra-MAGA people) actually care about this land too and are deeply against it being privatized.
Now… Does that also say something about them caring less about POC than land, yes. But this is one of those issues you really don’t have to push very hard to get people to care about. Even if they’re not annual park visitors, a very large chunk of citizens in the US seem to care about this.
We just can’t get a break from you guys, can we? Doesn’t matter what the discussion is about, it always gets turned into US political grievances. This is what’s killing this platform and making every sane person leave.
This is a post about the legality of resting in different areas (apparently in the US), it’s inherently political.
I could understand if this were a sub about bunnies or something, but it’s not. I don’t think the fediverse is dying, and I dodn’t think you have to seek out reasons to clutch your pearls and be offended that people dare talk about the politics that affect their lives…
It’s a showerthoughts community. Nobody subscribes here for politics. There’s a time and place for that kind of discussion and this isn’t it and clearly I’m not the only one feeling that way.
So glad you get to live in a world where you get to ignore politics. Also, I’m assuming you live in another country, and that’s why you’re frustrated things default to the US. So do I. I fucking hate that the US Empire has Earth by the balls, though that is ending (thankfully).
And unfortunately, anything billionaires do here is often a sort of trial run for other countries. These assholes (Tech Asshole Billionaires, Heritage Foundation and theocratic asshats, Trump and Wallstreet, etc) want to carve up this entire fucking world and enslave us, like full on chattel slavery. That is, those of us they haven’t sent to death camps. We need to do everything we can to stop this.
You might not be a leftist, so the term endstage capitalism may or may not mean anything. But we are living in those times, and a few outcomes await us. One of them being techo-feudalism and surveillance dystopia, or a better world where we break this shit apart. Either way, politics is quickly affecting every single aspect of your life, because these assholes want to privatize every single minutia of your life if they can.
Maybe one day we can sit back and ignore ‘politics’ (as they are defined now), but until then, I believe we have a LOT of work to do.
It’s not a binary choice between consuming all the politics or none of it. It can be done on your own terms when you choose to, rather than being perpetually consumed by it all day every day. That’s an extremely unhealthy media diet that nobody should advocate for.
I actually hear you and greatly sympathize with this. I absolutely need days when I just don’t pay attention to the news or politics, outside of my local community organizing and action. I really look forward to a world where politics means what the etymology does “the dealings of the city”, and not catastrophic, firehose levels of information about every single thing, each one of which is existential. I look forward, and work towards, a day when either I or those who come after me (don’t have kids and won’t) live in a society where politics means mostly things like planting community gardens, neighborhood groups, and distribution of commodities in a local environment. Where even the bigger issues are amazing, like high speed rail and massive green energy projects, space stations, and megastructures that benefit all, not just the elite.
I really want you to know that I really feel where you are coming from, and I desperately want this torrent to stop. It feels so inundating and all encompassing. I applaud you for taking days where you recharge and take a break. In a sense, there is a privilege involved to those of us who can afford to do so, but also I will use that privilege for that, so that I can then go and also use it to fight back and make a change.
I can only speak for myself here, but it’s not even about taking days off. It’s about protecting the remaining non-political places from being poisoned by political discussion. There are so many more appropriate places for it than the Showerthoughts community. I don’t think anyone subscribes here for politics - rather as an escape from them.
It’s just my one-man fight against the wind. I keep at it not because it makes a difference but because I care. Still, if I manage to make even a few people more conscious of it when posting, I consider my efforts worthwhile.
I also apologize for my harshness. I aspire to one day be able to take criticism the way you did.
But it’s not consumption of media that’s the issue here. You’re offended that we’re mentioning political issues in a post about legality. You can ignore what you want, but everyone else doesn’t have to be silent or pretend they’re unrelated to make you happy.
i mean, this post is explicitly political tho?
If you think this is exclusive to the US you’re denser than a brick.
Yep, enjoy it while you can!
Black Lives Matter land?
It’s actually BURNlNG MAN land with a typo’d lowercase L that’s gonna unnoticed but it’s too late to change the records now.
(burning Man is on BLM land and happens to also be where the land speed record is currently held - salt lake city salt flats weren’t big enough, apparently)
For the fellow east-of-the-mississippi and not-US folks. The US Bureau of Land Management (BLM) operates public lands with fairly loose rules about use, including camping up to 14 days.
Sorry, it’s just one of my favorite lines from White Lotus.
I disagree with the initial claim.
I can go sit just about anywhere without concern of being cited for loitering.
Not sure where you get this idea from.
Are you white?
TBF they might just not live in America. Never really seen “loitering” being a thing outside of that mistake of a country, or at least I haven’t seen it enforced and I’ve been everywhere in Western Europe (where one would assume these things are more enforced since they’re culturally closer, idk).
Yes its an american thing. I can sit where I want in my country, unless its blocking some entrance or something.
Its because in America, you are not a human being. Someone should have informed you.
Another thing ive seen in American movies - people are not allowed to park and sleep in their cars it seems. There is always some officer walking up and knocking on their window and telling them they cant be there. Seems to be another sign of America.
Yep, a lot of it is hostility to unhoused people, based on the myth that “they are all ‘psychotic drunk drug addicts’ that are horrible people”, hence why people believe they are (and deserve to be) unhoused. It’s why hostile architecture is so common and ingrained in the US.
Also, Racism of course.
It makes sense from the American culture point of view, that someone who makes money is a winner and someone who doesnt is a loser. Its a view of people that is pretty evil.
100%
Fuck prosperity gospel, it and racism are so deeply ingrained in this country, and cause so many of our societal issues
No, I’m rural in liberal territory.
I cannot think of a single place within 20 miles in any direction that is not indoors nor private property that any human being cannot be more or less indefinitely.
You can’t camp within like 250 ft vertical of the treeline. That’s off limits for protecting the environment reasons.
If you’re pulled over in a car I the side of the road, a state trooper may come to see if you’re ok. Our states troopers got a much better rep than our cops, and our cops don’t do too bad comparatively.
Acab, but know your enemy. It ain’t the outdoors.
You’re in New England aren’t you? BTW if this ends up being true, I actually didn’t stalk your profile to see. I am originally from MA and one of my favorite things about NE, and specifically MA, is that even the most rural spaces have pride flags and very progressive. It’s actually the suburban sprawl areas that are more purple, but not enough to turn any part of the stage red.
I fucking love the Berkshires and some day I am moving out there, that’s a promise I will keep to myself no matter how chaotic life gets, obviously so long as I am able to control it (eg, not drafted, don’t have to flee the nation, am not abducted by the modern S.A (ICE), etc)
My family is all over northern NY, and New England, Some PA and WV as well. Even the conservative pockets here are good between authority and your right to exist outdoors.
I just wish the neolib gun laws weren’t so insane. They know it’s treating a fever when the person is dying from sepsis, and they know capitalism and hyper-individualism is the disease, but these politicians make SOO much money off the system. They also know they can ausage the fears of NIMBYs and suburban white libs with some simple platitudes, get reelected, and continue making bank.
BTW, I’m not advocating for handing every person who walks into a shop a gun immediately, but as a leftist, I am against disarming the working class.
I assumed they’re Canadian based on liberal territory. However that doesn’t narrow it down much, looks like most of the territories vote red.
I was thinking New England too. I grew up in maine and there are very few places you’re banned from loitering. The cops, while still being fascist dirtbags, aren’t as bad as in more populous states.
LOVE Maine!! I need to visit Arcadia some time. I remember the first time I saw a full grown, wild moose was in Maine along a highway, we were pretty far north (probably about halfway up the state latitude wise), and she was HUGE. She had her fowl with her, and the baby was still the size of a freaking great dane.
Did the goalposts just move?
Nope. They’ve been this way since the 1700s.
Do you look homeless?
Not everyone can.
Those elements oft scorned by society who might otherwise be ticketed or jailed for sleeping at a park are treated closer to equal when sleeping on the sand.
Shoutout to Daniel Burnham and Montgomery Ward for keeping Chicago’s lakefront free and open for the people.
I’ve been there. It felt so odd being able to go to a government park, after sunset, against the water, and just have it be filled with people (like 100 people in sight, across the 600ft of lakefront I could see). When does it officially close, like 10pm? One cop-type was making rounds in the parking lot but not actually enforcing anything. There were occasional fireworks. I’m sure there are altercations sometimes, but the most I saw in my hour there was unruly kids (10 year olds). It was so peaceful.
I come from the coast where there is only private land and government land that closes dusk to dawn.
The parks and beaches and their associated facilities officially close at 11pm, but the Lakefront Trail is open 24 hours.
I’m very glad that my tiny east coast island believes in universal beach access. Although it is not yet illegal, I kinda lean towards wearing an all black pantsuit being some sort of citeable offense.
BS, and def doesn’t fit this group.
