in different social networks I often see a table of fediverse alternatives to centralized social networks like twitter = mastodon and so on, but I noticed that the alternative to reddit is piefed and not lemmy, can someone explain what kind of fediverse project this is, and is it different from lemmy?🤔

  • Wren@lemmy.today
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    7 hours ago

    I’ve tried them both along with a few different lemmy instances and found .today on lemmy is my best fit.

    Since others have covered the technical angle, I’ll say I prefer lemmy from a social perspective. My instance doesn’t block other instances, banning users only for extreme cases. I prefer to choose my experience for myself without being ideologically guided by someone else’s values.

    For all the criticisms of the lemmy developers, their biases don’t make it into the code. Instances are run according to the admins and user’s wishes, which allows .today to operate as openly as possible. Piefed, on the other hand, suffers from the biases of its developer, who not only blocks users but also instances of admins who don’t align with them. They have passed along their ban list to other admins as well, getting users banned for disagreeing with them. That’s not the behavior of someone I want running my platform of choice.

    Along with that. I, personally, don’t like the idea of reputation, low score flags, karma or any system based on the votes of users, since they can be easily manipulated. It feels like Piefed is trying to implement a more intense karma system, which was one of my main problems with reddit. I believe each post and comment should stand on its own merit.

    • SatansMaggotyCumFart@piefed.world
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      5 hours ago

      I have a hard time donating to the Lemmy developers knowing that money from it goes to run .ml.

      If it went to fund a neutral test instance I’d feel much better about it.

    • Paddzr@lemmy.world
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      4 hours ago

      The amount of extreme views I’ve come across made me just leave most of groups and there’s very little point opening it up… lemmy simply hasn’t got enough people to be blacklisting things. How do you handle it?

      • Wren@lemmy.today
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        49 minutes ago

        I don’t know what you consider extreme views. I don’t feel the need to try to handle anything.

        If you’re wondering how I curate my feed, I only browse by subscribed communities. If I want to find new ones I look at cross-posts, the community promotion coms, or search by interest.

      • Imgonnatrythis@sh.itjust.works
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        3 hours ago

        Are you blocking instances? You gotta block instances. Also block users aggressively. There aren’t that many bad egg users on the respectable instances. It doesn’t take too long to really clean up your feed.

    • DougPiranha42@lemmy.world
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      7 hours ago

      Good point. If there is a karma system, the main activity for a sizeable (and by definition overrepresented) chunk of the user base will just use the platform to maximize karma, whether for nefarious purposes or just because people treat gamified systems like games. Having real user registrations (so you can block individual users) as opposed to a 4chan like thing, but having no karma system or engagement optimization algorithm in the feed, are the requirements for a healthy forum.

      • Paragone@lemmy.world
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        7 hours ago

        I’d disagree on that:

        Slashdot’s moderation & metamoderation system was better than any system without metamoderation,

        & reddit’s idiotic you-can-post-or-comment-to-collect-karma-and-delete-your-post-or-comment-keeping-your-karma … distortion … isn’t something that’s intrinsic to karma-systems: they made it intrinsic to their system by choice, which is different.

        I’d have it so that if someone tries karma-farming, the instant they delete the posts/comments, all the karma from those disappears, right then.

        ( actually, I’d have it so that nothing can be deleted, & revisions are limited to 8 or 16 per post/comment: accountability requires that disappearing-of-history not be permitted )

        Also, Slashdot had multiple, not only up/down, kinds of votes…

        That’s required, too…

        Being unable to simultaneously vote that something is wrong & that it needs more eyes on it… is obstruction.

        _ /\ _

        • DougPiranha42@lemmy.world
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          5 hours ago

          It’s not like you can detect “if someone tries karma farming”. If the platform displays a measure of engagement with content that a user posts, users will be driven to post things that get them points. Then if the platform uses said metric to rank content, that unavoidably leads to a setup where users look at content posted for the purpose of getting points. Btw lemmy.world is also not free from this, people repost engagement bait stupid shit from Reddit to asklemmy all the time, and those get many upvotes and comments. But at least the users that post these don’t get any meta-post outcomes.

      • Wren@lemmy.today
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        7 hours ago

        Absolutely agree that people will always try to game a system that can be gamed.

        I would agree with real user registration if it didn’t open the ID Verification can of worms. Right now there is no way to make a KYC system airtight, and the risk outweighs the benefit, in my opinion. One user per account (if one could easily switch instances) would make for a healthier social ecosystem, though.

          • Wren@lemmy.today
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            4 hours ago

            You mentioned real user registrations, which I thought was a hypothetical control you were suggesting. Appologies if I misunderstood, I was explaining my thoughts on it in theory.

  • moseschrute@piefed.social
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    8 hours ago

    I would complete ignore whatever politics of Lemmy or PieFed people try and sway you with. Way too many people on here trying to start drama.

    In my experience, Lemmy moves slow but things are very stable. PieFed moves fast adding lots of features that Lemmy is missing, but tends to break things a little more. Both are very useable platforms.

    I’ve personally had great interactions with the Lemmy and PieFed devs, and I know they collaborate with each other behind the scenes.

    And if you’re unsure, I would just make a PieFed and lemmy account and try both. But the specific PieFed or Lemmy instance you choose might matter just as much as which software you choose.

  • tal@lemmy.today
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    8 hours ago

    There’s one “platform”, the Threadiverse, with three major current software packages (Lemmy, PieFed, and Mbin) that provide instances that interoperate. Unlike Reddit, there are those three different software packages that can be used to run instances, not a single codebase. You will choose a home instance (for you, nord.pub, which is PieFed) where your account lives, and which displays most of the content you see. There are also instances that host communities, and some of those probably don’t live on your home instance (e.g. you are posting this to the asklemmy community on the lemmy.world instance, which runs Lemmy).

    Lemmy was the original software package. It is written in Rust, which tends to be more-popular with systems programmers, which I think probably makes it a harder to get commits; Rust isn’t heavily used by Web developers, and a lot of the package is Web backend software. (I say this without any special bias against Rust; I personally would probably prefer writing software in Rust in general.) Some of the developers have hard auth-left positions (like, they want the Soviet Union back and Stalin is top-notch) which is a major turnoff to some users, especially since the main development instance, lemmy.ml, has admins that moderate along those lines in some ways. Lemmy is by far the most-widely-used software package as of this writing. Lemmy also has a number of “alternate Web frontends” — I don’t think that this is true of the others, though the PieFed situation may have changed since last I looked. Lemmy also has the most support from mobile clients (though as of this writing, all of the three packages have mobile clients that support them). I can think of a few things that Lemmy can do, like be set up to proxy images for users with a Lemmy home instance, that I don’t know if the others can do yet. Lemmy’s had a couple of really bad releases in terms of bugs, but nothing really substantial that I can think of recently, though I don’t admin an instance. The biggest Lemmy instance is lemmy.world, if you want to take a look at its Web UI.

    PieFed was a follow-up, done by a guy in IIRC New Zealand. It’s written in Python, a language that tends to be more-used in Web dev. There are far fewer PieFed instances, but I’d say that it’s generally been gaining userbase relative to the other two. I feel like the rate of development is generally quicker. I’ve seen some people saying that PieFed performance is generally better than Lemmy; I have not validated this myself. In general, Rust tends to be more performant than Python if you know what you’re doing, but the performance limitations on a package like PieFed and Lemmy are probably I/O and database-related, where the language doesn’t play much of a role, so I could believe this. PieFed’s Web UI lets one use keystores (like YubiKeys or similar) to authenticate, which I don’t believe that Lemmy can do. PieFed has the ability to rewrite links so that links posted by someone else don’t send you to another instance off your home instance, which…I’m not completely sold on, but I think is probably the best current fix for the problem of not being able to link to comments and posts on other instances without taking someone off their home instance and is generally easier for users. PieFed’s Web UI merges cross-posted articles into a single page of discussion. PieFed used to have better blocking features than Lemmy, could let users do instance blocks, but I think that Lemmy has caught up here. I’m currently using a Lemmy home instance because I’m happy with that instance, but if I were personally to choose a new instance, I’d probably favor a PieFed instance, all else held equal. The biggest PieFed instance is piefed.social.

    Mbin is a continuation of a discontinued project, Kbin. Kbin was originally done by some Polish guy, IIRC on an educational grant from the EU. I believe that this was more of a university project for him; he got kind of overwhelmed by the equivalent of a city of people flooding in when Reddit banned third-party clients, hadn’t really been planning to change the world. I think that Mbin is mostly being developed by a European set of users, but I haven’t spent much time poking at it after the fork from Kbin. It’s written in PHP, a language that’s pretty backend Web-dev oriented, but also tends not to be used much outside of that area. Its main claim to fame is that it tries to combine both Reddit-like threaded community forum discussions and Twitter/-like microblogging functionality, interoperates with Mastodon. I haven’t used it much recently, but last I did, I hit a number of what looked like bugs; I feel like it’s presently lagging on development. There are some things that I like about the Web UI, though I found it a bit annoying to rapidly access one’s list of subscribed communities. Last I looked, the Lemmy “spoiler” block to hide spoiler text in comments didn’t work on Mbin, but that may have been fixed. The biggest Mbin instance is fedia.io.

    All three have some subtle incompatibilities in their Markdown syntax, the language that you write your posts and comments in, but they’re close enough that it’s not generally an issue.

    In general, the decision from an end-user standpoint mostly comes down to which you want as your home instance, since they have different Web UIs. If you never use the Web UI, it’ll probably matter less; a client like Interstellar talking to a Lemmy instance looks pretty much like when it’s talking to a PieFed instance. You’ll probably use communities hosted on all three (as you are currently, with !asklemmy@lemmy.world being on Lemmy and your home instance of nord.pub being PieFed) and not notice the difference there.

    EDIT: I guess I should probably provide a summary-and-conclusions section:

    • Unless you’re a developer or administering an instance, the main difference you see is probably in the Web UI that is presented, if you use the Web UI.

    • There are some functional differences, though they often have copied successful features from each other.

    • Mobile client support exists for all three, but not all mobile clients support all instance types. Interstellar on Android supports all three, if you want to use a single client for all of them.

    • You can have accounts on home instances of all three types if you want, so easy enough to try out all three. I presently have my main account on a Lemmy instance, but I also keep an account around on a PieFed instance, which I’ve occasionally used as a backup if my main home instance is having technical issues or similar so that I can still respond to people; it’s a nice option that Reddit doesn’t really have. When Reddit goes down, the whole thing is down. The Threadiverse not infrequently has one instance somewhere having some sort of issue, but the thing doesn’t go down as a whole.

  • Teknikal@anarchist.nexus
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    8 hours ago

    I used Lemmy for a while, then jumped over to Piefed out of curiosity.

    Personally, I can’t see a real difference from my own usage. Possibly I can see a few more communities, I’m not even sure, but yeah, for me personally, they both do the same.

    Granted might be partly because I’m using Summit for both accounts and generally looking at the same things.

  • DudeImMacGyver@kbin.earth
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    8 hours ago

    There is also Mbin (I’m on an mbin instance). They are just different interfaces for interacting with the Fediverse. Each has different features and UIs. They have their own mobile clients too, but there are clients that work with multiple platforms as well.

    As long as they are federating with one another you can view Lemmy communities from Mbin, Mbin magazines from PieFed, etc.

    • Imgonnatrythis@sh.itjust.works
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      3 hours ago

      It’s grown beyond it’s roots and unless you are donating money to .ml you’re not really supporting a cause by using it especially if you join a non tankie instance.

      Piefed uses karma and that’s one of the things I left redditto get away from.

    • Aatube@kbin.melroy.org
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      8 hours ago

      if we’re going by developer politics the only drama-free one is mbin, though there’s a new fork of piefed called pylova because of the recent piefed drama

    • Takeshidude@lemmy.world
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      9 hours ago

      Lemmy’s devs may be tankies, but doesn’t the piefed software come pre-built with instance blocks that can’t be modified?

      Kinda sounds like the choice between a brand-new Ford Pinto and a Toyota Hilux with 800,000 miles on it

      • Sir. Haxalot@nord.pub
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        7 hours ago

        No. It does come with a default list of blocked instances, but that is fully admin configurable.

        The block/silence list people have been referred to is piefed.social specific, which is often mixed with the software in general because it’s the “flagship instance”.

      • wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        8 hours ago

        They at least used to be toggle-able along with all the ideologically driven features. But the fact they’re in the codebase at all is concerning.

    • NTesla@lemmy.zip
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      9 hours ago

      Are all other Lemmy instances made by commies? I know .ml instance is developed and maintained by them.